Soulution for Styling Apex

[october]

Sorry, I disagree...
See, I think there is a cultural thing going on here in America.
It's as though if you don't sit and wait a very long time for something to
happen, that somehow your are either cheating as Neli pointed out, or as
you allude to creating an apex on borrowed time...

See, I think this couldn't be further from the truth, for by taking a view
such as this, one is forgetting the most important thing of all...
We are working on an ever changing, every growing, living thing.

That where are trees are now... they will not be in 20 or 50 years...
This is of course unless they are dead. For argument sake, let's assume
then that they are not.

As was stated with my opening comments, let us not forget it is all about,
growing and replacing. This is probably the most important thing anyone
could ever learn about Bonsai in my opinion. With this in mind when one
hears folks like Ryan talk about Kimura designing a tree with an understanding
of where it will be in 50 years... It is my opinion, and understanding, that what
Kimura is doing is designing the best tree he can at the moment. This is foremost !!!
We are in the present... no use designing something you may never live to see.
Second, he understands that by bending a branch to foreshorten (as Smoke has
pointed out), It makes the design look good now, and will later be cut back further
on the branch, when new back budding permits.

Other than the basic bones of a tree, pretty much everything is changeable , and
more than likely will be replaced, or altered in the tree's life. This is just reality.
When this becomes apparent, and one begins to come to terms with this kind of
understanding... One does not view suggestions as I have made in the same way.

For a beginning juniper bonsai, the apex will always have far greater growth, than the
rest of the tree. Therefore, in the early days of styling one should consider that anything
you've done up here, will change. That by the time the tree is ready years later for show...
it will and should not, if you are doing things right, in my opinion, look like any of the
suggestions made here at this thread. But. in the mean time, you should design for today.

This is just my opinion... but, there will always be something wrong with a tree, you
Cannot, and really shouldn't try and correct every issue all the time. I one does,
I think you will end up with a very weak tree, all the time.

I cannot really give right, wrong or opinion. However, I can tell you the following, which is a true story.... About 6-7 years ago, I used to create an apex very similar to what you are doing. I used this and any method to create a nice apex. At one point, about 6 years ago. I asked my teacher about this. I told him and explained how I would create an apex on a problem tree. I asked if this was ok, if it was cheating, what about the future and other factors? He did not give me a definitive answer. I think it was on purpose. After several years, I found the answer myself. That is it may not be cheating, but it will never work as well as doing it structurally sound the first time. You cannot disagree with what happened to me and the experience I had because it happened to me. It was something that actually happened. Now, whether or not, in the next 3-4 years the apexes you have created hold up, remains to be seen. They just might. However, the instant apex creations from my past were on borrowed time.

Also, I think you might be painting this in a light where it takes years and years to create a great apex. In some cases, I have created traditionally structured, nice apexes in 2-3 years.

Rob

 

[A Random User]

Thought I would post up further illustrations of where and how the technique
I suggested, would develop and where the "big loop" would disappear over time.
Now, because I didn't want to complicate the illustrations, I didn't include one
thing that obviously would happen with an apex... that being that further branches
New branches would grow, and would be allowed to work into the design. If I put
them in, I think it would of complicated the illustrations.

So, the first one, is the original top view from my beginning post.
As the foliage begins to grow and produce finer branches within, one
then would cut back to the second picture.. All the while maintaining
a nice and full foliage filled apex. Once these grow, they can later be
reduced even further, as evident in the last pic. As mentioned, by the
time of the last pic, one should have a lot more to work with in the way
of new branching within this area. Also, it would have grown further away
from the main trunk, I just didn't fill it all in with green squiggly lines.
At a later time, this might be able to be reduced even further back to the
very first branch.

See, no smoke and mirrors or faulty designs, just an understanding of how
things evolve, and how one does not have to just put a leader up and wait
years. Not trying to insult here. I personally think putting up a leader is just
incorrect, for a couple of ways... You have to look at it, which is foremost, the
second being, that if it is very young not really well established foliage, and
kinda scraggily, one risks the chance of it drying out faster and dying. Juniper
foliage like to stay together, and do better when allowed.

 

[A Random User]

I cannot really give right, wrong or opinion. However, I can tell you the following, which is a true story.... About 6-7 years ago, I used to create an apex very similar to what you are doing. I used this and any method to create a nice apex. At one point, about 6 years ago. I asked my teacher about this. I told him and explained how I would create an apex on a problem tree. I asked if this was ok, if it was cheating, what about the future and other factors? He did not give me a definitive answer. I think it was on purpose. After several years, I found the answer myself. That is it may not be cheating, but it will never work as well as doing it structurally sound the first time. You cannot disagree with what happened to me and the experience I had because it happened to me. It was something that actually happened. Now, whether or not, in the next 3-4 years the apexes you have created hold up, remains to be seen. They just might. However, the instant apex creations from my past were on borrowed time.

Also, I think you might be painting this in a light where it takes years and years to create a great apex. In some cases, I have created traditionally structured, nice apexes in 2-3 years.

Rob

Thanks for the reply...
In all actuality I agree that it does not take very long to create an apex.
What, I was suggesting was that because it does not take very long to create one,
that way to much emphasis is being spent on the creation of one.
I am saying, to spend the main effort on the rest of the tree, that the apex
more than likely will have to be thinned, or reduced in one shape or another to
try and divert energy from here... that by the time the rest of the tree is finished
the apex will easily fall in line, if not be already finished.

 

[Smoke]

I like it. Thanks Stacy, I will do this to all my trees in the future.

 

[A Random User]

I like it. Thanks Stacy, I will do this to all my trees in the future.

Don't get the drift ?
Are you posting to be sarcastic?

 

[Smoke]

Don't get the drift ?
Are you posting to be sarcastic?

I get it. In fact I had it...about ten years ago I was where you are now.

Now I work my finer smaller branches better as I come up the trunk, spending more time wireing and making artistic choices so I don't have to put this hideous corkscrew on the top of my tree. When I get to the top I have just what I need to make the apex look presentable without building in five years work reducing a whole bunch of branch that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Comprende?

 

[A Random User]

I get it. In fact I had it...about ten years ago I was where you are now.

Now I work my finer smaller branches better as I come up the trunk, spending more time wireing and making artistic choices so I don't have to put this hideous corkscrew on the top of my tree. When I get to the top I have just what I need to make the apex look presentable without building in five years work reducing a whole bunch of branch that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Comprende?

Really ???
I posted this thread up trying to actually have a serious discussion
Here. Because everyone here is always saying all I do is try a start fights,
And that this is the whole reason for me coming here...
And what happens when I do ?
Dude, you may know more than me, but I also haven't spent the years doing
This, as you have... I can't figure out what is worse, you doing it as long as you
Have, and me spending a quarter of that time nipping at your heals, or you obviously
Feeling threatened enough to post what you did. I am fully aware of one
Thing though, and that is you just proved shit does flow up stream.
I am out of here... feel free to enlighten your disciples.

 

[Smoke]

Really ???
I posted this thread up trying to actually have a serious discussion
Here. Because everyone here is always saying all I do is try a start fights,
And that this is the whole reason for me coming here...
And what happens when I do ?
Dude, you may know more than me, but I also haven't spent the years doing
This, as you have... I can't figure out what is worse, you doing it as long as you
Have, and me spending a quarter of that time nipping at your heals, or you obviously
Feeling threatened enough to post what you did. I am fully aware of one
Thing though, and that is you just proved shit does flow up stream.
I am out of here... feel free to enlighten your disciples.

We "are" having a serious discussion. Having a serious discussion means that sometimes people will not agree with you. I have my opinion and you have yours. Whats the problem.

Know one will care about this thread if there is not some "serious" discussion. I made my point and you made yours, why all the hate man. I got a shoot, bent it the way I do it, so that there is some contrast to this thread....discussion if you wish. Then you went all postal on Rob. You have a real problem with people disagreeing with you.

Maybe you have taken the best course of action if you can't discuss like a human being.

 

[october]

Stacy, I think that there is some miscommunication here. What I believe Smoke and I are saying is that we have absolutely been where you are right now. Smoke probably 10 - 20 years ago and me, only about 6 years ago. This in NO WAY is reflective is one's skill, artistic ability or anything to ability. It is purely chronological. I used to do almost the exact same things you used to do, but I found out in the long run that it did not hold up and sometimes caused health issues in that area of the tree.

Let's say this. You know those beautiful scrolls you create. They are masterpieces. Now, just say I started doing it. I had been doing it a few months. Now, you saw my work and thought it was really good. I described to you either what paper I used, inks, brushes or something along these lines. Now, you tell me that in your experince, the particular ink, paper or whatever I am using does not hold up well in future. It might be fine for a few years, but then it starts to fade or there are other problems. You site examples and reasons why. Now, I would most likely want to ensure that my work endured so I would, in all likelihood, switch to what would ensure a better future. This is all I am trying to say here. I mean, I could wait and see. However, trees are not prints or paintings. You might only get one shot.

Rob

 

[coh]

I am out of here... feel free to enlighten your disciples.

Again? Geez, I have never seen anyone so sensitive on a bonsai forum...maybe any forum.

The discussion has been interesting and thought provoking. Hopefully it will continue, with or without you.

 

[A Random User]

Stacy, I think that there is some miscommunication here. What I believe Smoke and I are saying is that we have absolutely been where you are right now. Smoke probably 10 - 20 years ago and me, only about 6 years ago. This in NO WAY is reflective is one's skill, artistic ability or anything to ability. It is purely chronological. I used to do almost the exact same things you used to do, but I found out in the long run that it did not hold up and sometimes caused health issues in that area of the tree.

Let's say this, you know those beautiful scrolls you create. They are masterpieces. Now, just say I started doing it. I had been doing it a few months. Now, you saw my work and thought it was really good. I described to you either what paper I used, inks, brushes or something along these lines. Now, you tell me that in your experince, the particular ink, paper or whatever I am using does not hold up well in future. It might be fine for a few years, but then it starts to fade or there are other problems. You site examples and reasons why. Now, I would most likely want to ensure that my work endured so I would, in all likelihood, switch to what would ensure a better future. This is all I am trying to say here. I mean, I could wait and see. However, trees are not prints or paintings. You might only get one shot.

Rob

Thanks Rob, but there is no miscommunication.
I just had a difference of opinion than you, and I posted it just as
You posted yours. Their was absolutely no insults thrown here by me
Towards you or anyone else for that matter, until Smoke felt it was his
Duty to try and put me in my place, because of merely a difference of
Opinions. This will be my last post, and the only reason why I bothered
To write this is that you have always been fair to me.
Thanks

 

[Eric Group]

Goodness...

Isn't Smoke always a bit of a smart ass? That is part of his charm!!
If everybody ran off and left the forums when he cracked on them, there would be very few people left here! I dont see what everybody is so worked up about- Saw grass, feel free to do it your way if you think it will work, let Smoke make his question marks and B4me make them out of a bar branch...

I think someone should try all three ( wait, FOUR- almost forgot Neli's bringing a top branch down to make the apex and a lower branch..) and show the results so we can pick a winner! I actually have three Shimpaku in need of some apex refinement... And a "regular" Sergeant Juni I have been working on that might be suitable for Neli's Japanese style, except I shortened the top branch about a month ago and pretty much worked it into a modified ?
I am off work Wednessday, maybe I can be the guinea pig! Sounds like a lot of work and a lot of pics and I have no decent digital camera... But if I get a chance Maybe I will be able to make something happen.

 

[Smoke]

, until Smoke felt it was his
Duty to try and put me in my place, because of merely a difference of
Opinions.

No, problem was, you never answered post 20?

 

[Neli]

Goodness...

Isn't Smoke always a bit of a smart ass? That is part of his charm!!
If everybody ran off and left the forums when he cracked on them, there would be very few people left here! I dont see what everybody is so worked up about- Saw grass, feel free to do it your way if you think it will work, let Smoke make his question marks and B4me make them out of a bar branch...

I think someone should try all three ( wait, FOUR- almost forgot Neli's bringing a top branch down to make the apex and a lower branch..) and show the results so we can pick a winner! I actually have three Shimpaku in need of some apex refinement... And a "regular" Sergeant Juni I have been working on that might be suitable for Neli's Japanese style, except I shortened the top branch about a month ago and pretty much worked it into a modified ?
I am off work Wednessday, maybe I can be the guinea pig! Sounds like a lot of work and a lot of pics and I have no decent digital camera... But if I get a chance Maybe I will be able to make something happen.

Eric,
Lets go back on topic. You remember I used the word cheating? That is how it looks like when you see a Japanese styled juniper. Why do I say That? Because it does not follow the conventional left right back...though there is some RULES behind the "madness".
No crossing branches, branches EVENTUALLY extend radially from the trunk...pads are not supposed to be directly one over the other.
That is why I laughed when I heard Al's statement. My reaction was the same.
I am sure you thought bringing the trunkline down as a first primary branch looks ridiculous...
But believe me, many junipers in Japan are styled like that. This is not something I invented...It was thought to me.
Just remember that the traditional Japanese style is very compact compared to the more natural style some people prefer.
Japanese are not bothered much with side branches even when growing a juniper from scratch...You dont know how shocked I was when Oyakata chopped most of the branches and jinned them on Junipers when he was teaching me first styling of junipers.
This is the main reason I started the article on styling junipers. hope I will finish it one day)...that is exactly where I am going.... To explain the unconventional way junipers are styled.
I want to give you some examples of it. On the first styling first branches can come from the top (apex ) area, From the top and behind...I know it sounds strange...but believe that is how it is done many times. Not that it is not done in the more conventional way but just that they do it like that as well. That is what I saw and here are some pictures of first styling of junipers done under supervision. You can not just do things like that out of your own ignorance. You are there to be thought and Oyakata will sit with me for hours explaining...watching me and correcting me. And for one at that stage of my learning process I would not have dared cut off big branch unless I asked him first.
It always started with:
For example: Make a wind swept...
He! Windswept!!!! Juniper???? How does one do that???
He will leave me puzzled for some time and then come and say. Lets make a virtual. Or tell me make a virtual! So he can tell me where I went wrong later.
Ones the plan was in place usually he will come and we will cut off all the large branches together...or tell me...remove this one as well.
See this junipers? It is not that I went to Japan and invented a new way of styling... or that I am trying to share weird and wrong ideas here. I am simply showing you how they do it at times....and many times.

.

 

[Neli]

Can you see the first Juniper I was given to wire? That was probably the third wiring of that juniper. Notice the first primary branch??? It comes from the top.
The second juniper is a rough material I photographed at a wholesale. Notice that all the lower branches are jinned and a branch comes from the top as a first primary branch.
Picture 4 is the apex of a pine...they are done in the same manner at times.
Here is a Scots juniper probably second wiring, but I dont think anything else than the first primary branch was wired before.
I will let the pictures speak for themselves.

 

[Neli]

I have many more top class junipers "finished" that are done like this.
This is a yamadori...before and after...Styled from one branch only at the top. I dont recall if I was removing wire and styling and rewiring or I just forgot to take pictures of before...or they are in another folder.
See the large branch I am cutting off on the second picture?
Can you see where the first left primary branch is coming from? From the top and behind.
And trust me this one day will be a tree you will like.
And another example of an yamadori that will be styled from one branch only.
Can we call this cheating...or a short cut instead of grafting branches...Maybe???? I dont know...
What I can tell you id that I have just too many pictures like that. I am not trying to impose on anyone to do it like this...I am simply showing you how it is done at times.
Can you see that on this juniper the first left primary branch comes from the top and from behind???

 

[Neli]

Sorry, this are the pictures that were supposed to accompany the above post...a bit jumbled but I am sure You will figure it out. I selected the pictures and posted while forgetting to upload them.

 

[Neli]

Hope this explains things better...and why I am writing the article on IBC of what I saw there.
I have not seen this explained anywhere and it initially it shocked me. That is why I wanted to share my experience...I dont know why no one has written about this...or maybe I have not seen it yet.
That is why I understand Erucs reaction.
And remember also that this junipers are styled not to impress someone like in a demo but for future development, by people who earn their leaving from that and plan to sale them..

 

[coh]

Are we talking about two different things here? (1) Building an entire tree out of 1 or 2 branches that originate near the top, versus (2) creating a spiral apex on top of a more conventionally built tree (one with side branches)?

Chris

 

[A Random User]

Are we talking about two different things here? (1) Building an entire tree out of 1 or 2 branches that originate near the top, versus (2) creating a spiral apex on top of a more conventionally built tree (one with side branches)?

Chris

I don't want to speak directly for Neli, and I hope she chimes in, I have seen
Alot of what she is doing, and she has come.a long way, and is.producing some very
Nice work...
With this said, I think we are doing both. I think the point of her posts is to
Show what we would consider unconventional, being done by folks in Japan.
Now, I have not been to Japan and witness things there being done first hand,
Buy from what I can tell through watching vids, as well as working with folks
Like peter warren first hand, is that not everyone in Japan does what Neli has shown.

Which only seems to demonstrate the point that there does not have to be only
One right solution to any problem. That even in Japan there is not a set way of
Doing things. I think the trick is to figure out what works best for you and what
You are trying to accomplish and if that means doing something different than what
Others are doing, than do it. If we all get to the same ending and create an awesome
Tree does it matter ?

For the record I just wanted to state that I have done precisely what Neli is showing
being done in Japan, without even knowing this was being done. I have
Worked on material, that the only real option was to reallly work a tree off a
Top branch. I wasn't trying to cheat or build a tree that was full of problems
That would later have to be resolved. Quite the contrary, unless I spent years grafting
And growing, this was my only solution to the tree. Now some might of gone the
Other route, and to them I say good for you, but neither discussion was wrong, nor should
It be, again just differences of opinions.

I wanted to say, that I was more than thrilled to see the posts that Neli put up,
Because I kinda as she did I sure, thought I was out of my mind the very first time I
Did this, but when I saw where it took my trees, I was like, ok...
Who cares, the tree is beautiful and I have done this since on a couple of other trees
Since. This does not mean I will do this to all of my trees, cause I won't... I approach
Working on trees differently with each tree I work on.
What can I do as an artist to make this into the best tree possible.
If that means doing something others might think is wrong, than so be it.