Somehow I Screwed UP Annealing My Copper Wire

[armetisius]

Strip the insulation; put it in a self cleaning over.
Turn off kitchen light and watch for signs (here)
[level of glow]; interrupt cycle/remove appropriately;
throw in sink of tepid water to quench. No other source but
Dad swears quenching copper at too cool a temp
makes it "brittle" quickly. Retired mechanic, I did
not question; observational science/experience is
enough for me. So I never quench; I want spaghetti.

Not everyone can burn pine needles! Sorce

Must you always brag? Okay for you guys fir, spruce
--all the good smelling stuff.
That's okay I will stick with my 200+ day growing season
and pine, cypress needles smell okay.

 

[M. Frary]

pine, cypress needles smell okay.

My annealing process doesn't smell nice. It smells like burning paper,hydraulic oil,wood and burnt insulation. Billowing black clouds of smoke and flames 2 feet high are the order of the day.

 

[armetisius]

My annealing process doesn't smell nice. It smells like burning paper,hydraulic oil,wood and burnt insulation. Billowing black clouds of smoke and flames 2 feet high are the order of the day.

That is on brush burning day; plenty of it here.
If ANYONE would like a privet--come get it or
SEVERAL.
PLEASE!
My second dog is an adolescent husky that wants to
dig thru to China. He is leashed at the side of the yard.
There are CLUMPS of smilax (saw briar) roots larger
than a bathtub in that bank. Multiple chunks that size
too.

 

[jomawa]

I wanted to use copper wire like all the cool kids, so I went down to Lowes, bought $65 worth of
wire. I built a fire ... Two hours later, I took out the wire; it looked perfect.

I'm not really certain of this buuut, I think you missed step two. One being get the wire, two being put it on the tree(s), three being if your tree(s) stay alive and if/when you remove the wire, you can reuse by firing to retreat it, get it hard yet supple. Or just whack that first wire off the tree(s) and buy more, repeat.

 

[Smoke]

Wire can be annealed on the tree. Trunk makes a good fuel source for the annealing process.

 

[sorce]

not really certain

I like you Jomawa...so I'll be serious for now....
If step one in your scenario still includes Lowe's as the source....

You should treat yourself to some annealed wire.

If you were joking.... or if you mean wire from Gremmel.
I will regret ever being serious.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Ok, folks...

I have been a fan of Jim Gremel's wire ever since I was introduced to it 5 years ago. Prior to that, I used Julian Adams's wire. And prior to that I used whatever I could, getting some from the bonsai shop, some from the hardware store. I've tried annealing my own over the years. Used the charcoal BBQ grill, the self cleaning oven, etc. (the oven worked better than the BBQ but my wife won't let me do it again.)

Anyway, both Adams and Gremel wire is better than anything I have done myself. There may be other good vendors, too.

But here's some anecdotal evidence:

Last Saturday, I had the opportunity to meet Juan Andrade at the Atlanta Bonsai Society workshop, and we worked on a couple trees. (JBP, of course! What else??? Lol!!!)

So, he wanted a piece of wire. I had my wire in my fancy cardboard box. He said he wanted a piece of number 8. (I asked "American 8" or "Japanese 8"? He laughed and said American.). So I cut him off a section and gave it to him. 8 is pretty heavy wire. Anyway, he goes to start to use it, and he says, "Oh! This is Gremel wire! It's really soft!" I acknowledged that it was.

We discussed wire for a minute. He said that Gremel's wire is the softest he's ever used, including the Japanese wire he'd been using while he was an apprentice in Japan.

I mean, that's as close to a blind test as any.

I like to wire, I know some hate it. Using quality wire makes it easier to put on, use, and remove. Heck, even Boon says I'm obsessed with wiring! Lol!!!

(Heck, I have little artistic talent, I gotta be able to do something well, so I try to do a good job with wire).

 

[JudyB]

I received my wire from Aaron Wiley yesterday, it seems really good. I have used Gremel wire, and like it, but the last batch I got, sprayed off slivers of the oxide coating every time I would bend it. Got into my eyes, and I know it's bad to breathe in. I thought I'd give a new guy a try, I like supporting new talent in the bonsai trade if the goods are worth the effort. I haven't actually wired with it yet, but it sure seems soft...

 

[Adair M]

I received my wire from Aaron Wiley yesterday, it seems really good. I have used Gremel wire, and like it, but the last batch I got, sprayed off slivers of the oxide coating every time I would bend it. Got into my eyes, and I know it's bad to breathe in. I thought I'd give a new guy a try, I like supporting new talent in the bonsai trade if the goods are worth the effort. I haven't actually wired with it yet, but it sure seems soft...

I know what you mean about the coating splintering off. Yuck. It never got in my eyes, though. It's never been so much that it was an issue. Maybe it has something to do with how the wire was manufactured? Before Jim got it?

I hope the new wire is good.

 

[JudyB]

Actually I asked Jim about it, and he told me he's constantly trying to eliminate the coating, but he's not always successful. Could be just that batch, but it was not good. But I do love Gremel wire, don't get me wrong!

 

[Smoke]

Actually I asked Jim about it, and he told me he's constantly trying to eliminate the coating, but he's not always successful. Could be just that batch, but it was not good. But I do love Gremel wire, don't get me wrong!

Thats because Gremel's wire is not quenched. He loads a whole kiln full and allows it to cool in the kiln. Copper wire is quenched to remove the silver scale that forms on the wire during the heating process.

 

[Adair M]

Thats because Gremel's wire is not quenched. He loads a whole kiln full and allows it to cool in the kiln. Copper wire is quenched to remove the silver scale that forms on the wire during the heating process.

I wonder if that's the trade-off for softer wire?

 

[Smoke]

I peeked at your reply, I don't like to argue so I have a lot of people on ignore. I have come out to say this about that. About a year ago I was chastised about quenching copper wire, I gave my reasons due to the trade I am in and even though it says on wikipedia that quenching copper does not affect its softness after annealing, it does effect its brittleness and its ability to stay soft. Quenched by the fire department. I pay good money to professional testers all the time to test copper wireing in homes after fires. Insurance companies are left on the hook if not tested and some brittle wire kept in a house breaks later and burns the house down again.

As far as I know Jim is "THE" only one that does not quench, and he does this because he can't. He can take his kiln to the exact temperature needed for perfect realignment of the chains and allow it to cool to the touch because opening a kiln at 1200 degrees is kind of risky! He does this because he's a potter, retired by trade.

That's why his is softest....period!

 

[Smoke]

That vase is called Gremel Red. Its his glaze. Anyone with a background in ceramics will notice that firing red and copper glaze together is a recipe for disaster.

 

[JudyB]

Well I for one, have gotten too much of the coating in my eyes on this last batch. If I can find something without the flaking and almost as soft, then I'll go there. Nothing against JG wire, but it's not a comfortable feeling when you bend and know what is going to happen...

 

[Smoke]

I also don't like the crunchy sound it makes when it flakes off.

 

[Smoke]

I have a tool shed in my backyard with ten or fifteen pounds in it. I don't use it anymore, not because of anything to do with scale or technical stuff. I just like aluminum wire and will continue on with that. I can bend big stuff with aluminum, bent pine branches as big as my thumb with aluminum and a guy wire. There are things about aluminum I don't like....we can send a man to the moon but can't make a coating that doesn't turn silver in 9 momths.

 

[Adair M]

I also don't like the crunchy sound it makes when it flakes off.

I don't mind the crunchy sound. Nor the feel of it when it happens. But I can understand how Judy wouldn't like it popping in her eyes! I wear glasses, so maybe that's why it's never happened to me.

Wow, I'm honored to be on Smoke's ignore list!

If you're still reading my posts, please tell Dorene I hope she continues to have success fighting her cancer!

 

[jomawa]

I like you Jomawa...so I'll be serious for now....
If step one in your scenario still includes Lowe's as the source....

You should treat yourself to some annealed wire.

If you were joking.... or if you mean wire from Gremmel.
I will regret ever being serious.

Sorce

I truly appreciate seriousness, especially if I'm wrong or ignorant of specific detail. My point was made from the idea that copper oftentimes gets one use, trusting new wire has the proper tempering to begin with, (I sense you are hiting that trust is unfounded), but the OP seemed to overlook the first use then heated the wire to bad condition. (I may have had some tongue in cheek in my response/advice.) I mostly use aluminum but have done some copper abomination as well and noted the advantage of better hold power. Haven't anywhere near enough experience to know whether it's too stiff or too limp and whether I can factor a ratio of the branch for an appropriate wire size. Still learning.
As for your seriosnes, it hinders not, except for the total crazyness of bnut.

 

[sorce]

it's not a comfortable feeling when you bend and know what is going to happen.

Nuff prison talk...

Keep it about wire!

Sorce