So now your spending 300.00 a year for Ryan, how much you spending for material?

[coh]

I can see the spirit of where @Bananaman is coming from. If you want to make good bonsai start with good material. I think the place that the discussion gets bogged down is when he equates cost to quality but then says the opposite about education. It is equally true that you need a good education to make a good bonsai.

Another thing that hasn't entered into the discussion is that what Ryan is producing is entertainment. You may learn some thing here and there but at its core it is entertainment. It is similar to watching The New Yankee Workshop, or This Old House, or any of the cooking shows out there. Will watching Norm Abram build a writing desk make you a better wood working? Probably not but it might inspire you to do better. It might give you a few tricks that you never thought of. The only difference here is that Ryan is doing bonsai and that you are paying for the ability to watch the videos.

Interesting points. It certainly is entertaining and there seems to be a bit of "celebrity worship" among some tier 3 members (based on the comments posted during streams). But...as I've said before, it's like going to a top quality demo every week where you can actually see and hear everything that is being demonstrated. How many times have you been to a club demo and if you're not in the front row, you just can't see what is being done? Not the case with Ryan's videos. You can see the details and nuances of pruning and wire application, and he describes the thought process behind the steps and styling decisions. Extremely valuable. I think it goes without saying that you still have to apply these skills and techniques to your own trees at some point.

The interesting question to me is, how long does this approach remain viable? At some point there will be diminishing returns, i.e. when you've watched a juniper be styled 4 or 5 or 10 times or watched 2 or 3 discussions of raffia application and heard all the stories about Kimura...is the market large enough to sustain this over more than a couple of years? Perhaps at that point the videos become a library or course (like Bjorn's) and the live streaming stops. Will be interesting to see.

 

[Anthony]

Or Coh, do you have the means to copy the live stream
and it is part of your library.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[0soyoung]

No material is any better than what you can make of it.

I don’t typically wade into these high waters, but I can’t let this one slip by...

300 x 100 is $30,000, not 300k. In this case and for this discussion, I think it’s a very important zero.

Based on the limited stuff I’ve seen, the production value of these streams is VERY high. Including Ryan, there seems to be at least 4 people running the stream (my sense is that these people don’t work for free.). Not to mention all the pre-production work and then the post production work to archive the stream. The preparation, week after week, to produce something like this is really amazing. And he is not getting a 300k revenue stream, it’s probably a third of that. All this to say, my sense is that he is probably losing money on this (or breaking even)...which goes to show, at least to me, that it’s done to progress bonsai in America and the world, more than to make a fortune. Everyone on this forum should be happy that people like Ryan (and Bjorn and others, for that matter) exist to advance the art we love so much. Not the least being one of the bonsai artist most responsible for Ryan’s start in Japan.

Yah, that ol' factor of 10 among friends.

I don't think he is doing this as philanthropy, at any rate.

 

[JoeR]

Please quote any time I have said that Ryan is not worth the money. What I have said is that spending money on Ryan and continuing to work with crappy material seems counterproductive. There is also one thing that always seems to fly foul in the midst of all this talking exercise. I have yet to see anyone here take a 10.00 dollar juniper and turn it into anything remotely like a nice bonsai. Wired out in detail and branches placed just so. Why is that? In fact there should be at least two or three a week here. Anyone with some great bonsai skills can turn a 10.00 procumbens into something that could be put into a show pot and actually shown in an club exhibit in about four hours. ...and you don't need a 300.00 a year video from Ryan to do that.

Thats all I'm saying. Anyone that has the money and wishes to stream Ryan, be my guest. It's no peel off my banana.

I have to say I agree. Yet have been guilty myself.

A Home Depot clearance tree will never equate a fine quality, high caliper bonsai. It simply won’t. It will, however, create frustration. Well some say, “just add time!” Or “I’m only X years old!”. At 18 I understand the thought process of buying cheap material and “just adding time” but I disagree with it. So you have the Home Depot find on your benches for, say, ten years, and you have to sit and stare at an ugly tree for ten years. You water it, fertilize it, etc, all in the hopes of TEN-TWENTY years down the road it will be presentable? You will probably loose interest and hope waiting that long. I almost did, and now nearly half of what I had in pots on my benches are in grow beds. And I couldn’t be more glad that I did that. At what point do you realize it’s better to start with cuttings or seeds, and develop flawless bonsai 100% crafted by your own hands rather than wasting money trying to correct the flaws of your deponsai? It feels futile, and in many cases It likely takes less time and effort to grow from cutting than to correct the imperfections in bad stock. Most of the time being the key here. I can probably count on one hand how many threads on here are of progressions from Lowe’s nursery stock to stellar, showable bonsai. If that’s your goal, anyway. Some people just like pretty plants in pots and that’s completely acceptable. They’re just not respectable bonsai necessarily.

I’ve not subscribed to Ryan’s podcast nor have I bought new material recently because I’ve been saving up for my fall tuition, so I can’t say if his videos are worth it. They probably are, IF you have material in the stages that require work like he demonstrates.

 

[Anthony]

@JoeR ,

remember most folk cannot design,will not admit
that, will not observe lone trees in fields, and that
they just copy other folks trees.

Nor will they go to an Art teacher for one on one lessons.

The cookie cutter efforts.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[atlarsenal]

He does work on nursery material also.

 

[Anthony]

A seed, a cutting [ twig] seedling can become anything.
Know where to cut and start over, and how on a K-mart special,
it will become a masterpiece.

Can you Design ????????
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Not true at all. Polishing a turd CAN be just polishing a turd for 25 years. Not more skill involved because generally, the turd tree you're working on (particularly vanilla nursery stock or walmart stuff) will not challenge you or push you much at all.

Collected stock and higher end purpose-grown stock present a vastly different set of challenges that require you to develop better skills to deal with them. Such stock, particularly collected trees, also present VASTLY steeper artistic and horticultural challenges than a $45 mugo pine or a $50 maple from Walmart or a nursery.

I spent 15 years working on crummy nursery and big box store trees. Those trees taught me a lot, but ALL of them never amounted to much, even after 15 years. I sold all of them off years ago. During that 15 years, I also started buying large collected stock. I found that working on those trees pushed me more and held me to a higher standard of care and capability. They taught me a lot more in a third the time than any of the nursery stock I'd been working on.

Better stock doesn't have to cost a freaking fortune. There is some spectacular collected stock out there that costs under $500 or even under $200 if you know where to look--(looking at you Zach, Andy and Alvaro ;-))

This tree started as $900 stock from Vito Megna two decadesView attachment 202677 ago. It had only rudimentary branching and the apex was as thin as my ring finger. It has progressed pretty well and has challenged me along the way.

I still disagree with you. Let's talk in 15 years and see if a 9 dollar tree can be turned into jewelry. I'm not going to spend that 900 dollar anyways, so I'll have to. The artist inside me doesn't need dollars to wake up, it provides it's own challenges.

 

[rockm]

I still disagree with you. Let's talk in 15 years and see if a 9 dollar tree can be turned into jewelry. I'm not going to spend that 900 dollar anyways, so I'll have to. The artist inside me doesn't need dollars to wake up, it provides it's own challenges.

I've been at that "15-years' down the road" place already. Believe me, it ain't all that. What you think is going to happen mostly doesn't with most trees. Mostly you are treading water.

Look, I understand not wanting to shell out big bucks (and BTW, I paid that tree off over a year, just like a new TV). I also understand the desire to "grow your own" into a masterpiece. The artist inside you is overestimating itself--been there too. I had all kinds of visions of how a $45 maple was going to be transformed by me into a spectacular priceless treasure because I was a truly talented gifted artist. Ten years into those projects, I saw them in a different light. They looked "off" when compared to more experienced bonsaiists' trees. I began to realize they had become obstacles for me since I'd done about all I could with them. you'll get there too, most bonsaiists who've been doing this more than 15 years have...

Yeah, you can create a pretty nice tree from a $45 maple (if you've chosen the trunk EXTREMELY WELL_--which isn't easy to do if you don't know what a good or great one looks like AND you apply techniques that set the tree up developmentally for ten years down the road). You can create a really great tree from a $100 bald cypress or elm stump. You can create a spectacular tree from a $500 elm or azalea stock tree grown or collected by an expert.

I know all this is probably falling on deaf ears, since apparently you are of the opinion that the more expensive the stock, the less work and talent is involved.

That's simple reverse snobbery and ego, though. Ain't true.

 

[coh]

I still disagree with you. Let's talk in 15 years and see if a 9 dollar tree can be turned into jewelry. I'm not going to spend that 900 dollar anyways, so I'll have to. The artist inside me doesn't need dollars to wake up, it provides it's own challenges.

Of course it can be done, all anyone has to do to see that is browse through Bill V's book. He took some ordinary nursery stock trees from a garden center and turned them into masterpieces. Of course, it helps if you know what you are doing along the way and have, say, 30-40 years...though admittedly if you find the right tree it can take less time. Those are hard to come by, though.

 

[watchndsky]

i spent about tree fiddy

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I've been at that "15-years' down the road" place already. Believe me, it ain't all that. What you think is going to happen mostly doesn't with most trees. Mostly you are treading water.

Look, I understand not wanting to shell out big bucks (and BTW, I paid that tree off over a year, just like a new TV). I also understand the desire to "grow your own" into a masterpiece. The artist inside you is overestimating itself--been there too. I had all kinds of visions of how a $45 maple was going to be transformed by me into a spectacular priceless treasure because I was a truly talented gifted artist. Ten years into those projects, I saw them in a different light. They looked "off" when compared to more experienced bonsaiists' trees. I began to realize they had become obstacles for me since I'd done about all I could with them. you'll get there too, most bonsaiists who've been doing this more than 15 years have...

Yeah, you can create a pretty nice tree from a $45 maple (if you've chosen the trunk EXTREMELY WELL_--which isn't easy to do if you don't know what a good or great one looks like AND you apply techniques that set the tree up developmentally for ten years down the road). You can create a really great tree from a $100 bald cypress or elm stump. You can create a spectacular tree from a $500 elm or azalea stock tree grown or collected by an expert.

I know all this is probably falling on deaf ears, since apparently you are of the opinion that the more expensive the stock, the less work and talent is involved.

That's simple reverse snobbery and ego, though. Ain't true.

.

I've been at that "15-years' down the road" place already. Believe me, it ain't all that. What you think is going to happen mostly doesn't with most trees. Mostly you are treading water.

Look, I understand not wanting to shell out big bucks (and BTW, I paid that tree off over a year, just like a new TV). I also understand the desire to "grow your own" into a masterpiece. The artist inside you is overestimating itself--been there too. I had all kinds of visions of how a $45 maple was going to be transformed by me into a spectacular priceless treasure because I was a truly talented gifted artist. Ten years into those projects, I saw them in a different light. They looked "off" when compared to more experienced bonsaiists' trees. I began to realize they had become obstacles for me since I'd done about all I could with them. you'll get there too, most bonsaiists who've been doing this more than 15 years have...

Yeah, you can create a pretty nice tree from a $45 maple (if you've chosen the trunk EXTREMELY WELL_--which isn't easy to do if you don't know what a good or great one looks like AND you apply techniques that set the tree up developmentally for ten years down the road). You can create a really great tree from a $100 bald cypress or elm stump. You can create a spectacular tree from a $500 elm or azalea stock tree grown or collected by an expert.

I know all this is probably falling on deaf ears, since apparently you are of the opinion that the more expensive the stock, the less work and talent is involved.

That's simple reverse snobbery and ego, though. Ain't true.

You're absolutely right.. About the deaf ears part.
If it's going to take 15 years for me to realize you're right about all those other things, I'll buy an expensive stock and name it after you. Maybe I'll be spreading that same message by then, and someone will stop listening to good advice and go their own way only to realize, 15 years down the road, that I was right.
I'm wondering how long that cycle has been going on. It must have been ages!
I'm stubborn, but honest about it. I appreciate your imput and sound advice, but I actively choose to ignore it.
That might come off as offensive, it isn't meant that way.
I'm just a year in, I have a lot to learn and I still have to lose my foolishness. But to be honest, you made it feel like a challenge now.
Maybe it's not the stock, but the people around you that pushed you towards doing greater things.

 

[Cable]

i spent about tree fiddy

Don't buy stock from the goddamn loch ness monster!

 

[rockm]

.
You're absolutely right.. About the deaf ears part.
If it's going to take 15 years for me to realize you're right about all those other things, I'll buy an expensive stock and name it after you. Maybe I'll be spreading that same message by then, and someone will stop listening to good advice and go their own way only to realize, 15 years down the road, that I was right.
I'm wondering how long that cycle has been going on. It must have been ages!
I'm stubborn, but honest about it. I appreciate your imput and sound advice, but I actively choose to ignore it.
That might come off as offensive, it isn't meant that way.
I'm just a year in, I have a lot to learn and I still have to lose my foolishness. But to be honest, you made it feel like a challenge now.
Maybe it's not the stock, but the people around you that pushed you towards doing greater things.

It was both. I also have the National Arboretum just 10 miles from me. Seeing the trees at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum over the years makes you realize that great bonsai doesn't typically come from Walmart or nursery stock. There are a handful of trees there that have that origin, but those were worked by people like John Naka, Chase Rosade and others. You soon understand that those trees are the exception and there are probably 10,000 more that had similar origins that were in the hands of a lot of bonsaists that never became specimens like those.

Good luck. I was gung ho a year in too. I still am, but age tends to instill a bit of humility...;-)

 

[Zach Smith]

Great bonsai come from time, good design and proper techniques properly applied. (And of course the good fortune to be able to maintain the tree over a lengthy timeframe.) Time is either time growing out in the wild for 20 or 40 years, or time in your garden for similar years. Design is what harsh nature has done and/or you've done to build the tree, and proper techniques in training are self-explanatory. It's very hard to replicate what nature does over decades, which is why the big collected tree usually looks better than the nursery find. They're so much more easily made into stunning trees.

Get the best material you can afford and style it to the best of your ability. Shoot for bonsai that please you most of the time.

For what it's worth.

 

[JudyB]

.
You're absolutely right.. About the deaf ears part.
If it's going to take 15 years for me to realize you're right about all those other things, I'll buy an expensive stock and name it after you. Maybe I'll be spreading that same message by then, and someone will stop listening to good advice and go their own way only to realize, 15 years down the road, that I was right.
I'm wondering how long that cycle has been going on. It must have been ages!
I'm stubborn, but honest about it. I appreciate your imput and sound advice, but I actively choose to ignore it.
That might come off as offensive, it isn't meant that way.
I'm just a year in, I have a lot to learn and I still have to lose my foolishness. But to be honest, you made it feel like a challenge now.
Maybe it's not the stock, but the people around you that pushed you towards doing greater things.

It’s a cycle that most who stick with bonsai go thru. It reminds me of the stages of greif, or a 12 step program...
If you do go see really great collections or shows, I think the timeframe is lots shorter than 15 years, I know it was for me.

 

[jeanluc83]

Please quote any time I have said that Ryan is not worth the money.

In response to a comment to @Vance Wood in the original thread:

The title of this thread ends with a question mark, so there will be those that think it’s worth it and those that don’t. Just because I don’t does not mean I am trying to pillory anyone nor do I think anyone here has.

And to be clear this is a response specifically about the live stream being worth $300 a year as the subject of this thread and the last one. But no you have not specifically said that Ryan is not worth learning from.

 

[Clicio]

It's very hard to replicate what nature does over decades, which is why the big collected tree usually looks better than the nursery find

That is the whole point. Imitations, limitations, not quites. Nursery finds are always in disadvantage when compared to good collected trees.
I think the best thing that happened to me is to have had the opportunity to go many times to Japan, and visit the bonsai nurseries and museums over there.

 

[TooCoys]

If you want to make good bonsai start with good material.

A $4000 camera doesn’t make an instant photographer.

A $10,000 stove doesn’t make a good cook.

A $200,000 Maserati doesn’t make a good driver.

The tools are only as good as a person using them.

 

[TooCoys]

I have yet to see anyone here take a 10.00 dollar juniper and turn it into anything remotely like a nice bonsai.

Wouldn’t that be subjective? What you think is good, and what another Tom, dick, or harry, think is good couldn’t be two very different things.

We used to have a saying in the show world of poultry.... “good is one assholes opinion given on a particular day.” Meaning that, the “winner” only won because THAT day, THAT bird, struck ONE nerve, in that ONE man.