Shut the whole damn country down!

Status
Not open for further replies.
BrianBay9 said:
This government's response is consistent with the Republican effort to dismiss science based discussions with ideology. In every instance over the past couple of decades they have substituted their own reality for facts. Trickle down economics? What the hell are we still trying that for? Tried. Failed. Climate change? No legitimate scientific debate that it's happening and we have few options to affect a change. Anti-vaxers? Overwhelmingly Republican. Decisions flying in the face of facts and logic. Corona virus response? Fox news lies and Trump's bullshit set us back months. I'm sick of it all.
Click to expand...
I couldn't be happier to hear you're sick of it all. If you don't understand trickle-down economics, you won't understand more sophisticated concepts like the fact that climate change models don't actually predict the past, much less the future. If you can't plug in past weather stats and come up with the right outcome, your model sucks. If you and I were having a debate about climate change and you hadn't presented anything other than your conclusion, there wouldn't be anything to debate. In a debate, the conclusion follows a recapitulation of supporting evidence presented in an orderly progression leading to a complete idea. Just saying that your opponent is stupid doesn't make you smart, and it doesn't make you sound smart, either. I could accuse you of being a Democrat, but that would assume that all Democrats think exactly alike the way all Republicans think exactly alike. But that would be wrong on quite a few levels.
 
To be honest I was very surprised more stringent measures were not taken in the US. This whole deal has been confusing to me concerning the US response. I knew this was serious back in early January and made personal preparations and let my family/friends know, only to be criticized by many as being a fear monger. Fox News and unfortunately the president both said this was no big deal and no worse than the flu, when released reports from China clearly showed differently. A lot of Americans still believe its no big deal. On face value, the death rate isn't anything to be concerned about. However, when you see that around 20% of those who contract the virus require hospitalization you can imagine how quickly things can snowball and get out of control.

If I could figure this out with my lowly internet skills, I have to believe with our "intelligence" that our government saw this coming as well. What's confusing to me is I get the general feeling our government allowed this to happen. I honestly dont know why. I have suspicious and conspiracy theories, but that isn't helpful. The media and our government have done a tremendous disservice to the American people and to be frank, it's criminal. So many baldfaced lies despite evidence to the contrary. It was clear since January that China was hiding the severity and infectiousness of the virus from the beginning. The virus was airborne and they lost a lot of lives (the upper guestimate is 21 million). There were Chinese journalists and Doctors who risked their lives or limited freedom exposing what was happening. It was clear face masks were essential to minimizing the spread of the virus, but until today our government said it wasn't needed and people are shamed for wearing masks. This whole deal has spiraled out of control and I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of economic and political fallout this has caused, both nationally and globally. I think this is a 911 event, where once the dust settles we realize we live in a different country and world.

So despite our political differences or national allegiances, at least we have the beauty of the bonsai art to keep us thinking thoughts of beauty and hope.
 
The people who are the authorities and leaders want to be "in-charge" but aren't willing to make a decision that might be less than perfect. It's the old saw of the perfect being the enemy of the possible, again. The malaria drugs hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin have been used since 1945 and the side effects are well known. Why didn't the powers that be immediately begin to use them? Because they didn't have the guts to look at the situation from the prospective of it's better to have something that isn't a perfect answer with predictable problems for everybody than to wait for the perfect to show up. In the meantime, people are dying. If you cut the number of people who die from this by half, and factor in advising people with problematic health histories to self-isolate, like old people and some others, then most of society could carry-on with life. The economic damage falls mostly on poorer people, and it didn't really have to be that way.
 
BackyardBonsai said:
Am frustrated to keep hearing news that a bunch of stupid people can't stop enjoy life for a few weeks so we can control this stupid virus. Am curious if some of you also have this thought in your head. Why can we as a country stop everyone on its track for 4 weeks so we can somewhat get back to normal. why Trump hasn't done that. If he did that we would have already 2 to 3 weeks in. This stupid virus will not go away if you still have people going around and spread to others. Am frustrated and upset!
Click to expand...
Some people (not me) cant sit still. Hobbies like bonsai require patience. For me it is therapeutic to tend to the plants. Some people are incapable of stopping to smell the roses. They need constant interaction or always being distracted from the simple things in life.

It's unfortunate because with technology, isolation is easier than ever. Sadly a lot of vulnerable people are gonna die and many more lose their livelihoods because a minority of idiots can't be bothered to stay home, let alone social distance.

And then theres China who got the ball rolling. I hope the world stops trading with them and starves their communist regime.
 
Just a few of Trumps lies and ignorance regarding Coronavirus. Brainwashed Trump supporters think he handles this perfectly.
1/22 Are concerned about a possible pandemic?

“No not at all! It’s one person coming in from China, we have it under control. It’s gonna be just fine. “



1/24 “It will work out well, it will all work out well”



1/28 “Johnson&Johnson is creating a vaccine.”



1/31 limits foreigners from coming back from China, but did not test or limit or quarantine Americans coming back from China. Couldn’t test because he refused the FDA to certify test kits from the World health organization.



2/2 “well we pretty much shut it down coming in from China”



2/10 “well looks like April when it gets a little warmer It just miraculously goes away”



2/19 “ I think the numbers will get progressively better as it just goes away”



2/23 “we have the Coronavirus very much under control in our country. We had 12 people with the disease at one point now they’ve gotten very much better. Many have fully recovered”



2/25” the media is panicking markets by reporting on Coronavirus”



2/28 “ the democratic policy of open borders is what is responsible for Coronavirus. The numbers on this virus are going down not up, very substantially down not up. One day it’s like a miracle, it just disappears”



2/29 “ we will have a vaccine very quickly, my administration has taken the most aggressive action in modern history to confront the spread of this disease”



3/2 “hey I just learned the flu kills 20-30 thousand a year. I didn’t know that.”



3/4 “our fatality rate is much lower then the world health organization’s.”



3/7”I’m not concerned at all, we have done a great job”
 
the experts? - have been wrong and suffer from tunnel vision and opportunities for 5 minutes of fame on cable news

the models? - have been wrong repeatedly and operate from incomplete data and then declare it science ( and how dare you question the science because that science is always right until more science comes along)

the media ? -they were wrong telling us this virus is nothing to worry about, early news stemmed from trumps being a racist against asians, no need to shut down travel UNTIL a month later when all of a sudden the sky is falling and then they stir the pot every chance they get

politicans/leaders (esp in NY) - are almost always wrong about pretty much anything- they started off blaming trump, declaring racism and encouraging people to live life as normal (and if you see an asian give them a hug and a kiss in solidarity to prove your wokeness), deblasio encouraged people to go see plays and enjoy parades then a month later blamed trump for not reacting quick enough

the general populace -well at least half of them are wrong because they dont listen to crap unless its spoon fed from the sources theyve already determined they agree with, they refuse to use common sense and think for themselves and then when crap goes wrong blame everybody else and expect the government to bail them out (because somehow they havent figured out yet that government doesnt care actually care about you and rarely does anything that doesnt bring them power)

the WHO - anybody who still thinks thats a legitimate organization hasnt been watching very closely and need to look at who's involved

china - all grades of wrong that we probably wont fully understand for years to come

trump - hes wrong for listening to the "experts" and allowing everything to shut down because the experts are going to "flatten the curve" worsening the economic impact - then when he (rightly) tells us we cant shutdown the economy indefinitely, the snarks proceed to declare that he doesnt care about anything but profits (and if you agree with him you must be a heartless republican too)

everybody bashing @A. Gorilla for rightly calling out the media for feeding the frenzy - youre wrong too - why shouldnt he be calling out the sensationalists and opportunists making money off tragedy and making the problem worse? the media is shit. plain and simple. theyve repeatedly politicized, sensationalized and flat out lied to everyone and yet people continue to lap it up as long at is confirms their own biases.

so theres a lot of blame to go around - but in fairness some of these people genuinely did the best they could. the fact is we are in unchartered waters and as smart as we humans like to think we are, no amount of modeling or AI exists to know the effects, there are too many variables and unknowns involved.

what can be known is that society doesnt function when businesses arent open and people dont work. period. you think its bad now? youre worried about the "cost" of human life and preserving it? well thats very righteous of you and you are obviously a much better person than me, but you aint seen nothing till we reach the point of no return and the world tips into a global depression. when people cant eat, and the rule of law has gone out the window (or civil rights are destroyed in the name of safety)

im way less worried about this virus than the collapse of our economy and a decade of despair because ive seen what humans are capable of (as well as what they arent) - and thats the crisis we should be worried about instead of listening to our favorite political mouthpieces on tv confirming what we already believe..
 
watchndsky said:
the experts? - have been wrong and suffer from tunnel vision and opportunities for 5 minutes of fame on cable news

the models? - have been wrong repeatedly and operate from incomplete data and then declare it science ( and how dare you question the science because that science is always right until more science comes along)

the media ? -they were wrong telling us this virus is nothing to worry about, early news stemmed from trumps being a racist against asians, no need to shut down travel UNTIL a month later when all of a sudden the sky is falling and then they stir the pot every chance they get

politicans/leaders (esp in NY) - are almost always wrong about pretty much anything- they started off blaming trump, declaring racism and encouraging people to live life as normal (and if you see an asian give them a hug and a kiss in solidarity to prove your wokeness), deblasio encouraged people to go see plays and enjoy parades then a month later blamed trump for not reacting quick enough

the general populace -well at least half of them are wrong because they dont listen to crap unless its spoon fed from the sources theyve already determined they agree with, they refuse to use common sense and think for themselves and then when crap goes wrong blame everybody else and expect the government to bail them out (because somehow they havent figured out yet that government doesnt care actually care about you and rarely does anything that doesnt bring them power)

the WHO - anybody who still thinks thats a legitimate organization hasnt been watching very closely and need to look at who's involved

china - all grades of wrong that we probably wont fully understand for years to come

trump - hes wrong for listening to the "experts" and allowing everything to shut down because the experts are going to "flatten the curve" worsening the economic impact - then when he (rightly) tells us we cant shutdown the economy indefinitely, the snarks proceed to declare that he doesnt care about anything but profits (and if you agree with him you must be a heartless republican too)

everybody bashing @A. Gorilla for rightly calling out the media for feeding the frenzy - youre wrong too - why shouldnt he be calling out the sensationalists and opportunists making money off tragedy and making the problem worse? the media is shit. plain and simple. theyve repeatedly politicized, sensationalized and flat out lied to everyone and yet people continue to lap it up as long at is confirms their own biases.

so theres a lot of blame to go around - but in fairness some of these people genuinely did the best they could. the fact is we are in unchartered waters and as smart as we humans like to think we are, no amount of modeling or AI exists to know the effects, there are too many variables and unknowns involved.

what can be known is that society doesnt function when businesses arent open and people dont work. period. you think its bad now? youre worried about the "cost" of human life and preserving it? well thats very righteous of you and you are obviously a much better person than me, but you aint seen nothing till we reach the point of no return and the world tips into a global depression. when people cant eat, and the rule of law has gone out the window (or civil rights are destroyed in the name of safety)

im way less worried about this virus than the collapse of our economy and a decade of despair because ive seen what humans are capable of (as well as what they arent) - and thats the crisis we should be worried about instead of listening to our favorite political mouthpieces on tv confirming what we already believe..
Click to expand...

This has been and is all about the choice between preserving life, defending the weak in our society and ensuring health services can cope without a total onslaught, killing more people because treatment can’t be given or preserving the economy by allowing life to continue as normally as possible.

Governments are damned if they do and damned if they don't, but I’m all for airing on the side of people over pounds.

The media may be making a huge deal out of this, but it is a huge deal so...

I hate that it has to be a situation where millions will likely die internationally to change the course of history, but we are at a potential turning point. People have been forgotten in favour of exponential growth (not possible in the end) where a huge divide between the haves and have nots continues to grow. This situation shows that a society based entirely on capitalism is weak and fraught with risk. The economy will suffer not because of hysteria and panic but because of poor planning and that we are all worth nothing more than being a cash cow.

I doubt things will really change, but maybe it will open the eyes of those with vested interest that continually teeter tottering on the edge of financial meltdown is not sustainable. There are more than enough resources, food and money to go around in times like this. Set money aside instead of lining pockets of the super rich and economies could cope. (Damn commies, eh?)
 
Forsoothe! said:
Everybody has an opinion, etc. You would think that the mathematicians who can tell us what the weather is going to be in the next century would have models that they could plug the current variables into and tell us who's on first. Actually they do! And all the models are yielding different outcomes. It gets worse! All their outcomes don't match each other or what happens the week following publishing. Oh, well, they'll be seeking funds to do more studies and make more models in universities from pole to pole and be awarded PhD's and professorships. Academe serving academia.
Click to expand...
All models are incorrect; however, some are useful. Unlike your statement.
 
Woocash said:
This has been and is all about the choice between preserving life, defending the weak in our society and ensuring health services can cope without a total onslaught, killing more people because treatment can’t be given or preserving the economy by allowing life to continue as normally as possible.

Governments are damned if they do and damned if they don't, but I’m all for airing on the side of people over pounds.

The media may be making a huge deal out of this, but it is a huge deal so...

I hate that it has to be a situation where millions will likely die internationally to change the course of history, but we are at a potential turning point. People have been forgotten in favour of exponential growth (not possible in the end) where a huge divide between the haves and have nots continues to grow. This situation shows that a society based entirely on capitalism is weak and fraught with risk. The economy will suffer not because of hysteria and panic but because of poor planning and that we are all worth nothing more than being a cash cow.

I doubt things will really change, but maybe it will open the eyes of those with vested interest that continually teeter tottering on the edge of financial meltdown is not sustainable. There are more than enough resources, food and money to go around in times like this. Set money aside instead of lining pockets of the super rich and economies could cope. (Damn commies, eh?)
Click to expand...

they arent "erring" on the side of profits over people -thats just partisan rhetoric. rest assured the politicians will be fine during and after this - its the rest of us that are at risk. just like the fact cat insider traders from our own congress - they seem to have a way of coming out on top.

but when businesses close, everything collapses. i grew up in a part of the country where you could walk a mile and never see a house, people still lived off the land, they grew and killed their own food although many still had jobs. where does that exist now? for better or worse we have traded that lifestyle for suburbs, and a cash based economy that trades currency for goods and services -you take that away and millions die from starvation, violence and suicide - not thousands from a virus. colleges may teach of a peachy world where everyone shares equally but actual history shows up something quite different. what are the 8 million people of new york city going to do when the economy collapses? where are the going to go to food much less find work? all that comes from capitalism - not from governments printing imaginary money.

the point isnt that the media is making a huge deal out of it (because it is) its they minimized it and politicized it when convenient and now that it cant be ignored and they have egg on their face they continue to politicize it and sensationalize it at the expense of the truth and the worlds best interest based on their own profits and political agendas.

but i dont understand why you started off talking about the importance of preserving life and immediately turn it into a bashing of capitalism and the have/have nots? this situation doesnt show the failings of capitalism - it shows the fragility of the human body and the societies we've created.
 
watchndsky said:
they arent "erring" on the side of profits over people -thats just partisan rhetoric. rest assured the politicians will be fine during and after this - its the rest of us that are at risk. just like the fact cat insider traders from our own congress - they seem to have a way of coming out on top.

but when businesses close, everything collapses. i grew up in a part of the country where you could walk a mile and never see a house, people still lived off the land, they grew and killed their own food although many still had jobs. where does that exist now? for better or worse we have traded that lifestyle for suburbs, and a cash based economy that trades currency for goods and services -you take that away and millions die from starvation, violence and suicide - not thousands from a virus. colleges may teach of a peachy world where everyone shares equally but actual history shows up something quite different. what are the 8 million people of new york city going to do when the economy collapses? where are the going to go to food much less find work? all that comes from capitalism - not from governments printing imaginary money.

the point isnt that the media is making a huge deal out of it (because it is) its they minimized it and politicized it when convenient and now that it cant be ignored and they have egg on their face they continue to politicize it and sensationalize it at the expense of the truth and the worlds best interest based on their own profits and political agendas.

but i dont understand why you started off talking about the importance of preserving life and immediately turn it into a bashing of capitalism and the have/have nots? this situation doesnt show the failings of capitalism - it shows the fragility of the human body and the societies we've created.
Click to expand...
Well yes this is a shitstorm one way or the other but the reason I went on a capitalism bash was because it really is the choice. Save people or save money. Throughout history money has always taken precedence over people and it’s nice to see it the other way round for a change. Maybe it is short-termism but what would the reaction be if governments just allowed the weaker members of our society to perish in favour of stabilising economies?

I understand your concerns but I don‘t really know what else can be done right now. I think if capitalism wasn't so important to all and sundry then we would be in a far better position coming out of this, thats what I meant.
 
You socialists out there in La-La-Land keep bashing the mechanism by which goods and service are provided. Socialism has never worked and has always descended into poverty and murder of its own citizens by those in charge removing dissenters. In the 20th Century more people were killed by their own governments than by opponents in war. Let that sink in. Now, who shall be in charge of the government that runs your country and/or the world? How shall you choose them, and how shall you un-choose them? The USSR tried that kind of government for 70 years and finally threw in the towel as being unworkable. China is what you get with socialism, how many people are sneaking into China because it's such a good place to live?

Trump needs to take control of the narrative and change the quarantine to self-identify problematic people who self-isolate, while others can return to business as normal, and make hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin generally available for prescription by all physicians in all states and used as a prophylactic by medical personnel. Will some people die? Yes, but no more than typically acceptable for living. This ia a simple three-step answer to this problem that has been over-blown because the medical field is not making a decision to do the least amount of harm instead of do no harm. By hesitating, more people are dying from Wuhan Virus alone than would have occurred from the combination of Wuhan and hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin intolerance and/or ineffectiveness in some people. That's the math that statisticians should be presenting to the public and leaders. God knows their models of the total mortality from the virus don't work and have been disparate from each other and what is actually occurring by an order of magnitude. This could be made policy tomorrow.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom