Shohin crabapple, ‘sargentii’

[Brian Van Fleet]

Updating a few threads today. Here is the crab pruned and wired. With a little more ramification, it should be good to allow to fruit.

 

[Adair M]

Updating a few threads today. Here is the crab pruned and wired. With a little more ramification, it should be good to allow to fruit.
View attachment 280457

As always, you’re doing it right! The temptation is to go for the flowers instead of developing good structure. But, you are willing to sacrifice flowers for a few years to get good structure which means you’ll have a better bonsai in the long run. Well done!

 

[JudyB]

one of my favorite pot pairings of yours. They belong to each other.

 

[Vali]

Don't you think that you repot it too often? I think you are stressing it too much and that you would speed up ramification if you gave it a break

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Don't you think that you repot it too often? I think you are stressing it too much and that you would speed up ramification if you gave it a break

What about it suggests to you that it is being stressed?

 

[Vali]

It looks healthy, but that is not what I meant. It doesn't look like it is stressed, but the development is being slowed down a lot, in my opinion. I'm sure you would have had some ramification if you just let it grow without repotting for a few years. It has to recover from root pruning every year and it surely slows it down.

 

[leatherback]

The best way to avoid that is to do pruning just after flowering I think.

On regular crabs (But also full sized apples) I find that the flowering branches will show lots of nodes near eachother (As they do not grow). And the buds are larger than normal. Is that the case here too?

 

[Shibui]

I find that my smaller bonsai grow much better when root pruned each year. Roots quickly fill the small pots and the following season it becomes harder to get water and nutrients into the pot so the trees start to suffer. There's also no spaces for new roots to grow so growth slows.
Root pruning slows a tree appears to be a myth. Annual repotting of smaller bonsai does not slow growth. It actually improves health and growth. Instead of seeing what you believe to be fact you really need to look at what you are actually seeing.

I've had this discussion with many people. It takes most bonsai growers up to 10 years before they finally acknowledge that their bonsai really do grow faster and better in the year following a repot.

 

[Dav4]

Fwiw, I don't believe crabs are known for their ramification and this tree really only needs a few more small branches to be show worthy (slow and steady wins the bonsai race every time!)... and I agree with @JudyB that this is a great pot/tree pairing.

 

[cmeg1]

Thats a real gem from Brent!

 

[sorce]

root pruning

most bonsai growers up to 10 years before they finally acknowledge that their bonsai really do grow faster and better in the year following a repot.

We were kinda talking about this on @Mike Corazzi thread....

I think it actually takes people that long to realize they don't have to cut off so many roots.
Or after ten years, the core has "backrooted" enough for this to be true.

Either way, we can't have this conversation without acknowledging the fact that newbs cut too many roots, or without identifying how many roots are actually cut.

The only thing that I don't like about this tree is that one larger root, so I hope Brian keeps yearly repotting to somehow fix that.

Unfortunately, I think the blue mark on the pot brings more attention to that root.

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I think you are stressing it too much and that you would speed up ramification if you gave it a break

It looks healthy, but that is not what I meant. It doesn't look like it is stressed, but the development is being slowed down a lot, in my opinion.

Your first reply made me wonder if you’ve been growing these for years and saw something I was missing. I do not think this tree is showing any signs of stress at all; your second reply seems to agree. If you have some crabapple bonsai, I’d love to see them.

This tree has been reduced from a 1-gallon can to a bonsai pot with a volume of maybe 75% less, and has required annual repotting to over the last 3 years to stay healthy. Eventually it may slow down and require it less often, but now by mid-summer, it requires water twice daily; that is stressful to the tree. Root-pruning and repotting actually improves the tree’s health and performance.

Shohin bonsai is tricky, it’s all about reducing the design to the most compact presentation, while still offering some semblance of that species in nature. This crab has added degrees of difficulty by wanting to grow strong, long internodes, and straight sections without much taper. At 15-20 years old, this tree wants to be 6 Feet tall, and it’s 6 Inches tall. So, the first work is getting the roots into an appropriate-sized pot, then selecting the branches, pruning them short, and allowing them to slowly develop; coaxing out some shape with wire. Once the bones are set, the blooms and fruit can be enjoyed.

I am happy with the pot pairing, the trunk movement and taper, and mostly satisfied the primary branch placement; though it will continue to be a work in progress to soften a few of the angular shoots. This result in 3 years, to me, is satisfactory, and I am eager to see it in another 3.

 

[sorce]

but now by mid-summer, it requires water twice daily; that is stressful to the tree.

Why you figure that is stressful?

I figure it shouldn't be so long as it gets water.

I have been once a day, but recently read (again) about roots growing when dry, which I don't wholly believe anyway, but have thinking about setting up dryer mix and more frequent watering. Which I won't....but...so you know where my mind has been....

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Why you figure that is stressful?

I figure it shouldn't be so long as it gets water.

I have been once a day, but recently read (again) about roots growing when dry, which I don't wholly believe anyway, but have thinking about setting up dryer mix and more frequent watering. Which I won't....but...so you know where my mind has been....

Sorce

It wilts when dry. That is a sign of stress.

 

[sorce]

It wilts when dry. That is a sign of stress.

Ok. So as long as the water I provided before wilt it's ok?

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Ok. So as long as the water I provided before wilt it's ok?

Sorce

Sure, as is the case nearly universally. However, if a tree wilts regularly between watering, that is a sign of stress in the plant.

To preempt the next argument: yes, if you could abandon all other responsibilities and water a tree every time it needs it, it is possible to avoid repotting altogether...so long as the roots remain healthy and you don’t mind the rootball pushing up and out of the pot. Dan Robinson is well-known for not repotting his trees. Repotting is something that should be done as infrequently as practical, but there are times when it is necessary:

1. To reduce the volume of roots present.
2. To replace the soil.
3. To work on the nebari/surface roots.
4. To change pots.
5. To change the planting position.

If none of these are necessary, you probably shouldn’t be repotting your tree.

 

[sorce]

preempt the next argument: yes

There wasn't a first argument, , but what IS the next?

An "argument" to not Repot?
I think that would be foolish.

So ....

but now by mid-summer, it requires water twice daily; that is stressful to the tree.

Requiring water twice a day isn't stressful.

The wilting is stressful.

I sincerely don't want you to believe I EVER have an argument too, it is very damaging to me and this environment.

Just seeking clarity.

Sorce

 

[Vali]

Your first reply made me wonder if you’ve been growing these for years and saw something I was missing. I do not think this tree is showing any signs of stress at all; your second reply seems to agree. If you have some crabapple bonsai, I’d love to see them.

Looks like you can't stand critics. I am not talking about crabapples. That is my opinion regarding all trees.

by mid-summer, it requires water twice daily; that is stressful to the tree.

I seriously doubt that water requirement is stressful for a tree as long as it receive's the amount needed. Maybe you meant that it is stressful for you.

the first work is getting the roots into an appropriate-sized pot, then selecting the branches, pruning them short, and allowing them to slowly develop; coaxing out some shape with wire.

I would do these things in an other order. I would repot it in a slightly larger pot, style the tree, and only afterwards would I select the appropriate pot. More roots give the tree more energy and that speed's up the process.

I am happy with the pot pairing, the trunk movement and taper, and mostly satisfied the primary branch placement; though it will continue to be a work in progress to soften a few of the angular shoots. This result in 3 years, to me, is satisfactory, and I am eager to see it in another 3.

Don't misunderstand me, I like your tree very much. It looks much nicer than before, but it only has the primary branches. There is absolutely no ramification beyond (as far as I can see). It is obvious that you only focused on them. You did a good job, the trunk and branches are nicely tapered, the pot is great, but in 3 years you didn't get any ramification except for the primary branches.
This is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree

 

[sorce]

I highly appreciate taking three years to create primary branches of appropriate thicknesses.

1 year in reverse which was necessary and a 2 year hold.

Love this.

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Looks like you can't stand critics. I am not talking about crabapples. That is my opinion regarding all trees
in 3 years you didn't get any ramification except for the primary branches.
This is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree

First, I don’t mind critics at all if they add value. You stated an opinion, and then immediately reversed it when I followed up. No value.
Second, now that primary branches are set, the goal is to achieve some ramification. That is the stated plan.
Finally, you’re new here, so it’s reasonable to be curious about your work so I can decide what merit to give your opinions.