Shimpaku 2013001

[Vance Wood]

Pictures from other angles as requested

View attachment 44075View attachment 44076

As I said this is a start. As suggested by Vance, I thinned some of the foliage and I wired some of the smaller branches and all of the end of the lower branch as it was not wired at all to spread out the branches and see what was there.

I think I took off quite a bit of foliage. Maybe I could have taken more off, but I dont know how much I can take off without potentially harming the tree. It is now November, next spring when it can recover better, Ill look at it again and see what I will do next. There are lots of possibilities but Id like to study the tree longer before I make up my mind what Im going to cut/jin and what Im not. Once its cut/jinned, you cant change your mind so I like to take my time with this.

Coh Thanks for the ideas, Ill keep them in mind as possibilities.

This tree has had some training. There is some movement on the branches although it might be hard to see through all the foliage.

This was a tree that was offered up on a raffle table at my bonsai club. Yes, its not a world class bonsai, but it was the only thing there that was anything close to a trained tree at all. I also dont have a shimpaku and as we know they are usually pretty expensive. This tree is a easy way to learn about them without spending alot of money. Later on I might look for a better shimpaku once I know more about them through this one.

In any case all ideas/discussion are welcome. They may show other possibilities that I might miss.

I made mention of what I thought should be done on another post about Junipers. I suggest you read it to get an idea of what I am thinking about this kind of material. It is an odd thing to me that many people will choose the Cascade style for a first tree but have little idea how to make one, and quickly run into difficulties.

 

[A Random User]

Pictures from other angles as requested

View attachment 44075View attachment 44076

As I said this is a start. As suggested by Vance, I thinned some of the foliage and I wired some of the smaller branches and all of the end of the lower branch as it was not wired at all to spread out the branches and see what was there.

I think I took off quite a bit of foliage. Maybe I could have taken more off, but I dont know how much I can take off without potentially harming the tree. It is now November, next spring when it can recover better, Ill look at it again and see what I will do next. There are lots of possibilities but Id like to study the tree longer before I make up my mind what Im going to cut/jin and what Im not. Once its cut/jinned, you cant change your mind so I like to take my time with this.

Coh Thanks for the ideas, Ill keep them in mind as possibilities.

This tree has had some training. There is some movement on the branches although it might be hard to see through all the foliage.

This was a tree that was offered up on a raffle table at my bonsai club. Yes, its not a world class bonsai, but it was the only thing there that was anything close to a trained tree at all. I also dont have a shimpaku and as we know they are usually pretty expensive. This tree is a easy way to learn about them without spending alot of money. Later on I might look for a better shimpaku once I know more about them through this one.

In any case all ideas/discussion are welcome. They may show other possibilities that I might miss.

Sorry to make you do this... but can we now get pics of the other side of the
tree from the new photos you just took. Reason why I ask is that this side,
the pics you just posted I would actually make the back of the tree...

 

[Paradox]

Vance, there are 100+ threads about junipers and Im sure you've posted in many of them. So forgive me if I dont search immediately for a week or two for the one that you commented on in your 3000+ posts.

I also dont remember every thing that everyone posts here off the top of my head.
If I recall correctly, you dont like cascades.

My "difficulty" is inexperience. The only way to get experience is to take a tree and do something with it. Ive had this tree for 2 weeks, and I havent had much time to really look at it yet. I also dont know how much I can do to it without killing it. Its November so again I dont want to do too much to it. So I will take my time with it. If it takes an extra year or two to get it in shape, so be it, I am not in a rush.

This also isnt my first tree, nor is it my first cascade tree. I have a few now in various stages of pre-bonsai. I also didnt go looking for this tree or pick it from among many other trees. It was the only tree on a raffle table among a bunch of other things I didnt need. My number got picked so I took the tree.

Im not expecting any praise or pat on the back, but it would be nice to know if what I did was a step in the right direction and how much more I could do to the tree now since that is my biggest issue here.
I know there is alot more to do. Dont know how much I can do now.

In any case, I get it. I did a horrible job, or didnt follow what you said to some degree. Sorry I cant live up to your 50+ years of experience with just 3 years taking care of trees.

 

[Paradox]

Sorry to make you do this... but can we now get pics of the other side of the
tree from the new photos you just took. Reason why I ask is that this side,
the pics you just posted I would actually make the back of the tree...

All sides of the tree are in the first post. Those are pre-thinning of the foliage though.
I wont be able to get more pics until next weekend because I get home from work after dark.

Not sure if its worth the effort at this point.

 

[A Random User]

Once you post pics from the other side, I would start trying to
do something with your tree that looks like this...
The lower swooping branch will now come from the back of the tree
to the right and should be wired somewhat towards the front, towards
the viewer. The rest of the tree should be wire similar.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, there are 100+ threads about junipers and Im sure you've posted in many of them. So forgive me if I dont search immediately for a week or two for the one that you commented on in your 3000+ posts.

I also dont remember every thing that everyone posts here off the top of my head.
If I recall correctly, you dont like cascades.

My "difficulty" is inexperience. The only way to get experience is to take a tree and do something with it. Ive had this tree for 2 weeks, and I havent had much time to really look at it yet. I also dont know how much I can do to it without killing it. Its November so again I dont want to do too much to it. So I will take my time with it. If it takes an extra year or two to get it in shape, so be it, I am not in a rush.

This also isnt my first tree, nor is it my first cascade tree. I have a few now in various stages of pre-bonsai. I also didnt go looking for this tree or pick it from among many other trees. It was the only tree on a raffle table among a bunch of other things I didnt need. My number got picked so I took the tree.

Im not expecting any praise or pat on the back, but it would be nice to know if what I did was a step in the right direction and how much more I could do to the tree now since that is my biggest issue here.
I know there is alot more to do. Dont know how much I can do now.

In any case, I get it. I did a horrible job, or didnt follow what you said to some degree. Sorry I cant live up to your 50+ years of experience with just 3 years taking care of trees.

I'm sorry if it seemed I was condescending to you----it kind of sounded that way and I'm sorry.

No you did not do a horrible job, you did the same kind of job most people do in trying to produce a cascade bonsai. Yours looks just like dozens I have attempted. The truth is that the cascade is the easiest to imagine and identify but the most difficult to execute well. Most beginners will head for a cascade like a dog for a steak.

This is what I wrote in the post I mentioned:

If this was my tree and I had it to the point of development you presently enjoy this is exactly what I would do. Understanding that I have a real personal issue with cascade design and do not see them as clearly in my mind as I would like to, I would immerse myself in every bonsai book, gallery or web site that has pictures of good cascade bonsai (which are few) and try to analyze ever aspect of them I can make myself understand. That my friend is the truth. I have found that the Cascade is the most difficult of styles to pull off well. I am not saying that your tree is bad, the health development is evidence of your great ability to work with a tree. I am just saying that it falls into the same category as most cascade attempts and if I was faced with this result I would not be happy with it----- either. You have done some good things with the tree but I think I know you, and I think you are not happy with it. It's a great start but your stuck?

As I said earlier you need to research the style, you need to get a feel for the style beyond the falling-over-the-side-branch. You need to have a thing for the way the falling branch relates to the base of the tree. You need to have a thing for the way the individual branches relate to the larger branches they emerge from. You need to understand their importance to the rest of the tree and how they relate to each other. That's the strategy, now we have to look at the tactics: How do we get there, and a grasp of what "THERE" is.? What do we do to what, and when. That is the tactical issue, the techniques and styling skills to make "THERE" happen.

For now I believe the best thing you can do is start thinning out some of the foliage and exposing the workings of the inner branches and developing foliage pads. That should keep you busy for the time being, you cannot understand the secondary branches if you do not see them.

I hope you will forgive me for being a pedantic doodie head.

Last edited by Vance Wood; November 5th, 2013 at 07:44 AM.

 

[Dav4]

The portion of trunk that leaves the soil and extends upwards to the split is straight and taperless. This, to me, is the biggest obstacle you have in creating a one or two line cascade here. If this were my material, I would consider an air layer or root grafting just below where the trunk splits. Lose that portion of trunk and the image becomes much nicer.

 

[Vance Wood]

The portion of trunk that leaves the soil and extends upwards to the split is straight and taperless. This, to me, is the biggest obstacle you have in creating a one or two line cascade here. If this were my material, I would consider an air layer or root grafting just below where the trunk splits. Lose that portion of trunk and the image becomes much nicer.

You have identified the most critical element of the cascade; the base of the tree and what kind of story does it tell in justifying the cascade.

 

[JudyB]

The portion of trunk that leaves the soil and extends upwards to the split is straight and taperless. This, to me, is the biggest obstacle you have in creating a one or two line cascade here. If this were my material, I would consider an air layer or root grafting just below where the trunk splits. Lose that portion of trunk and the image becomes much nicer.

Thanks D4, I couldn't put my finger on what was stopping me from seeing this work, but now that you've said it, my eye gets it. another learning tidbit!

 

[Paradox]

The portion of trunk that leaves the soil and extends upwards to the split is straight and taperless. This, to me, is the biggest obstacle you have in creating a one or two line cascade here. If this were my material, I would consider an air layer or root grafting just below where the trunk splits. Lose that portion of trunk and the image becomes much nicer.

Without having the tree in front of me (I'm at work), I think this is probably the option I like best right now.
I hate to cut off the top yet because, like I said, once done there is no going back. Yes its a long trunk with no taper, a common problem with Junipers, and it does detract from it.

I think I will try an air layer next spring and see how it looks then if it works. Once we see how that works out, we can look at the top and modify or remove it altogether.

I just don't like to rush in order to do something which is a good thing to some extent. I've already had a few cases where I did something and regretted it or I thought that a tree should go in one direction but later decided on another course once Id stared at the tree long enough.

 

[october]

Personally, I would not bother air layering this tree. It is not a good candidate for it and would not be worth it. Generally air laying is used to make a medicore tree into a great tree. There are some things you can do though. You can add a rock to create visual mass at the base. Another option is you could apply raffia and twist this whole thing into a yamadori style. Then, plant it in a colander for a few years. Another way to go would be to not limit your vision to the current movement. Perhaps putting some movement in the opposite directions of how it currently moves, might yield a better image.

All in all, don't let what you have in front of you dictate the final look. Picture what you want the tree to look like and then create it.

Rob

 

[Paradox]

I took a closer look at the trunk last night. It looks as if someone tried to thicken the trunk by scarring/making a shari on it as was suggested by Vance. There is a big scar on the back that Id noticed before but didnt look at it in detail. Its healing and it did thicken it somewhat but not much.

I tested it to see how pliable it is for bending and it actually seems rather rigid and brittle. So it doesnt seem to be a good candidate for bending either. In fact it almost seems as if the tree is dead/dying.

So the best thing to do with it might be to use it as kindling for the fireplace....lol

 

[A Random User]

So the best thing to do with it might be to use it as kindling for the fireplace....lol

Well... at least now you figured out what to do with the tree.
If you want I can do up a virt of it for you ???

 

[Paradox]

Well... at least now you figured out what to do with the tree.
If you want I can do up a virt of it for you ???

I can photoshop a "vert" of it in a fire...lol.

I guess we will know for sure if its really dead in a few weeks.

In any case, I cant get more pictures of the others side until the weekend when I can actually have daylight to do that.

 

[coh]

Why do you think it's dead/dying? Foliage getting dry/crispy? Some of mine (procumbens especially) have turned their drab brownish winter color already.

 

[Paradox]

The foliage seems fine at this point. When I tried to see if/how it would bend, the trunk seemed very dry and brittle instead of supple, like a juniper should. I tried the fingernail test, the trunk was very hard and I didnt find much green under the bark. There seemed to be some further up though. We will see I suppose.

 

[A Random User]

It is quite possible that it might just have a dead vein running through the trunk.
Where you think it is dead did you scratch the trunk on all sides of that area ???

I have quite a few trees where sometimes it makes you wonder how sections are
still is alive, but they are... I wouldn't give up on the tree just yet.

 

[Paradox]

Got more pictures today as requested by Sawgrass. I hope these are the angle you wanted.

Right now, to me, it seems that the top branch has to go. I really dont like the "Y" look it gives.
You can also see the huge scar on the trunk. Probably going to have to do something about that at some point.

 

[Vance Wood]

The foliage seems fine at this point. When I tried to see if/how it would bend, the trunk seemed very dry and brittle instead of supple, like a juniper should. I tried the fingernail test, the trunk was very hard and I didnt find much green under the bark. There seemed to be some further up though. We will see I suppose.

Shimpaku trunks are stiff at first. With a little pulling and bending back and forth they relax a bit but as long it did not crak or break you are probably OK. It is usually necessary to wrap them in raffia and use guy wires and heavy wire.

 

[Paulpash]

Maybe the change of angle I suggested in #15 might help along with heavy bending ??