Seller's Responsibility

[Raindog]

New to bonsai game and couldn't find info on the site, so please excuse if this is a repeat topic.
What is the responsibility of a bonsai tree seller who is activity engaged in selling tress, not a one time sale between individuals?
I understand if it is a sale of one tree that it becomes extremely difficult to figure out the reasons why a tree didn't make it. But what if you had purchased three similar trees, handled them identically and two did extremely well and the other just turned brown and headed into the cosmos? Should the buyer expect some type of return or exchange policy?
Thanks

 

[Zach Smith]

New to bonsai game and couldn't find info on the site, so please excuse if this is a repeat topic.
What is the responsibility of a bonsai tree seller who is activity engaged in selling tress, not a one time sale between individuals?
I understand if it is a sale of one tree that it becomes extremely difficult to figure out the reasons why a tree didn't make it. But what if you had purchased three similar trees, handled them identically and two did extremely well and the other just turned brown and headed into the cosmos? Should the buyer expect some type of return or exchange policy?
Thanks

Can't speak for others but I guarantee safe arrival. At some point, once the tree is there and has resumed growth I consider the deal to be done. Depending on the time of year most trees will push new growth within a couple of weeks.

If a tree isn't going to make it you usually know right away. That's for deciduous and broadleaf evergreens. It's more difficult with pines and junipers, since they die more slowly.

Zach

 

[abqjoe]

I haven't been in this game long but IMO if a tree show's up super healthy and then dies a month later then that would be on the buyer! If someone buys three tree's, all different species, but cares for them all the same then there will most likely be problems because different species require different care. Some like to be a little bit dryer, some like to be moist, some like to be wet, some prefer shade, some prefer full sun all day etc etc. If I treat a Japanese Maple the same way I treat my Junipers, the Maples most likely won't last long. Also, the buyer has to be educated on what species of tree's can and cannot live in their USDA climate zone. I would love to own JWP but I can't because they won't and can't survive in my climate and elevation.

 

[twisted trees]

I've been selling trees for over 15 years. As a responsible grower/seller I would never ship what I thought was an unhealthy tree (I have cancelled sales when on closer inspection I find a tree in questionable health). I also have a seven day return policy, buyer pays return shipping. Otherwise there are no refunds.

 

[Sunwyrm]

In the reef hobby; this seems similar to selling fish/coral and comes up a lot. Once it's in the buyers hands there's no guarantee on if their parameters/husbandry are conducive to keeping the fish alive. I would say for a small period of time (some sellers do a 14 day guarantee) there might be some seller responsibility, but after that it's definitely on the buyer.

Sometimes this hobby is so identical it scares me. Make sure you set up a separate quarantine tank for your trees!

 

[Cadillactaste]

If the tree arrives in a sickly state...then by all means seller. But if it declines on new owners hands...then I would state it's issue lies with the care it's receiving. Now...a conifer is a bit different. Since they can hold their green awhile before showing signs of being a goner. I would never buy a conifer from someone I didn't trust...unless it was pushing growth and I could see it visually see that growth with my own eyes via a current photo.

 

[GrimLore]

I always look for what/where the origin is for that plant... I have seen personally that if I order a plant and it cannot be acclimated although it arrived in good condition I am equally responsible and just take the hit. No big deal , just a buyer beware speech really. If it leaves there and you request it, all up to you. I have however purchased bare root plants at the "proper" time and received obvious "bad". In those cases the dealer was always eager to replace in a rather fast way...

Grimmy

 

[Eric Group]

I offer a replacemeant tree or refund if the one I sent is damaged/ killed in the mail. If it is healthy when I sent it, healthy when it arrives, then someone contacts me months later to say the tree died... Well that is a tough situation for all involved. No way to say who is at fault! The truth is, sometimes trees just die. Sometimes the climate change dos them in slowly, sometimes they are infected by some sort of bug or illness after arriving, maybe it wasn't watered enough one day and just craps out... It can be a combination of so many things that causes it.. Hard to say when someone should or should not be liable for a tree they sold dying but in my experience with larger nurseries, you are told at purchase what their policies are. "Guaranteed for a month", "guaranteed for a year as long as you haven't repotted".... If that was not disclosed, the trees arrived safely and you had them for a while... If the vendor doesn't have a policy in place that covers these situations specifically then I'd say no there is no Liabikity on the seller's side. That isn't to say they won't do anything to help. Have you contacted them?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In this day and age of digital photography, a photo is worth a thousand words. Take a photo showing the tree the day you are shipping it. Take a photo of the tree as it goes into the box. Take a photo of the box as you drop it off at the shipper. Then, tell the buyer that they should take a photo the moment it arrives and is unboxed, and then give some window for "bad luck".

 

[Don Blackmond]

New to bonsai game and couldn't find info on the site, so please excuse if this is a repeat topic.
What is the responsibility of a bonsai tree seller who is activity engaged in selling tress, not a one time sale between individuals?
I understand if it is a sale of one tree that it becomes extremely difficult to figure out the reasons why a tree didn't make it. But what if you had purchased three similar trees, handled them identically and two did extremely well and the other just turned brown and headed into the cosmos? Should the buyer expect some type of return or exchange policy?
Thanks

Unless the seller has a no-questions asked policy, you have not provided enough information to answer properly. There are countless reasons for trees to die, and only some of those reasons stem from the seller. Trees are living entities and their livelihood depends on a delicate balance of many different factors. One tree, even of the same species, is not like another, so transient properties do not apply.
What was the condition of the tree when you acquired it? That should tell you a lot. Was it healthy? Did it appear healthy? Were you concerned about its condition or health and, if so, did you notify the seller immediately? If it looked fine when acquired, then how long before its condition changed? Generally speaking, it should be evident if the tree is weak, dying or dead when you receive it. If its not weak, dying or dead when you receive it, and it dies or dies back, then you need to ask yourself why it happened and who bears that responsibility/risk. Before you ask the seller for a refund, ask yourself why the seller is responsible.
Also, keep in mind that most sellers DO NOT offer guarantees. They may offer you a credit or another tree as a goodwill gesture, but typically there is no guarantee that your tree will live. While this may sound brash, it is because the seller has no control over the conditions the tree is subjected to once it leaves the sellers' care, and those external conditions determine the health, life and death of the tree.
I recently paid $8,000 for some Japanese Black Pines from a Texas seller. I purchased from photos only, and knowing the seller sells from a blog and on eBay. They were shipped and arrived in terrible condition, with one dead/brown in the box and several others following closely along. I unpacked them, lined them up, photographed them and sent the seller an email within 2 hours of unpacking, showing the photos and itemizing the condition. Ultimately, I ended up with a $1,800 (22.5%) credit toward a future purchase. That's better than nothing, I suppose. The seller blamed shipping. It was not my fault. The seller claimed it wasn't his fault. Shipping companies do not guarantee live goods so there is no responsibility there. I took a good rogering on that deal.

 

[Raindog]

Thanks for all your replies. While I did order three trees, all the same species, from a specific seller one is doing extremely poorly. They were all maintained the same. My inquiry was one of curiosity as I do not have any definite cause of the tree's situation. I did contact the seller, but have not received any reply.

 

[coh]

I wrestled with this dilemma just this year. I purchased a tree (maple) from a well known grower last fall, it looked healthy...spent the winter with my other trees, was repotted this spring (along with a lot of other trees), then died slowly from some kind of bacterial or fungal infection. I have a thread about it somewhere. So where did the tree acquire the infection? Did it come with a latent infection, or did it pick it up during transplanting? There's no way to know for sure. All I can say is that I've never had any tree that died that way, which suggests the tree came with the infection. But on the other hand, those kinds of pathogens are all around us, so maybe I've just been lucky for the most part.

In the end, I did talk to the seller, as much to let him know of a possible problem with his stock as anything. He did offer a replacement which I appreciated, but I have not taken him up on the offer.

 

[jcrossett]

If you show pictures of the trees we may be able to help you out. Your giving no details on the species, type of care, etc.

Unless you are trying to protect a seller from here let less see the trees and some details.

Watering routine , sun exposure, any work you've done to them. Ferts.

Details my friend details.

You don't take a sick animal to a vet not letting the vet see the animal and say my other animals are fine but he don't look healthy. You give details.

 

[Raindog]

If you show pictures of the trees we may be able to help you out. Your giving no details on the species, type of care, etc.

Unless you are trying to protect a seller from here let less see the trees and some details.

Watering routine , sun exposure, any work you've done to them. Ferts.

Details my friend details.

You don't take a sick animal to a vet not letting the vet see the animal and say my other animals are fine but he don't look healthy. You give details.

Thanks for your reply, but I wasn't seeking diagnosis. I was interested in others opinions regarding seller's responsibility.

 

[KingJades]

What about if you buy a tree from a seller based on photos, but they concealed or didn't disclose problems with the tree? Major chop marks or wire scarring that are "conveniently" covered by foliage/angles in the photos, but are clear as day when the tree is front of you?

What if the photo shows developed branches/foliage ramification that has been removed prior to shipping?

 

[Cypress187]

It depends on the honesty of the seller and the agreements of the website.

 

[coh]

What about if you buy a tree from a seller based on photos, but they concealed or didn't disclose problems with the tree? Major chop marks or wire scarring that are "conveniently" covered by foliage/angles in the photos, but are clear as day when the tree is front of you?

What if the photo shows developed branches/foliage ramification that has been removed prior to shipping?

If I felt I'd been misled by a seller in that way, I'd first talk to them. If they won't respond or are unwilling to fix things, then I'd tell them I was going to share my experience on social media sites. If that still doesn't work, then I will go ahead and let it be known on facebook, bonsainut, etc.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I've sold orchids for years, shipping all over the USA. My written guarantee ends with delivery of the plant. If it looks okay when you take it out of the box, my job is done. That is all I feel I'm legally responsible for, and I make it clear, no refunds without sending the plant back to me at customer's expense. In practice I have "made good" with unsatisfied customers up to 2 years after purchase. Refunds, replacements, I've done it all. Key is if customer is polite, and seems to make an effort to be reasonable, no problem, replacement or refund is not an issue, sometimes I did not even request the problem plant returned. If I think I screwed up, certainly no problem. If someone calls me raving mad, and I can't calm them down in 3 minutes, Oh well, read the written guarantee. Generally no vendor wants a bad reputation, and word definitely gets around. Similarly no vendor wants to be taken advantage of, though at most in my experience only one out of 100 will try to take advantage. It is just a cost of business. And as a customer, I have found most vendors will go way beyond their written guarantee if they are approached politely.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I've sold orchids for years, shipping all over the USA. My written guarantee ends with delivery of the plant. If it looks okay when you take it out of the box, my job is done. That is all I feel I'm legally responsible for, and I make it clear, no refunds without sending the plant back to me at customer's expense. In practice I have "made good" with unsatisfied customers up to 2 years after purchase. Refunds, replacements, I've done it all. Key is if customer is polite, and seems to make an effort to be reasonable, no problem, replacement or refund is not an issue, sometimes I did not even request the problem plant returned. If I think I screwed up, certainly no problem. If someone calls me raving mad, and I can't calm them down in 3 minutes, Oh well, read the written guarantee. Generally no vendor wants a bad reputation, and word definitely gets around. Similarly no vendor wants to be taken advantage of, though at most in my experience only one out of 100 will try to take advantage. It is just a cost of business. And as a customer, I have found most vendors will go way beyond their written guarantee if they are approached politely.

That's a very reasonable and rational approach.