Self Education in Bonsai

[Dav4]

I agree BUT I don't think that is the question. Read the OP again.

There is no doubt that hanging with an experienced hobbyist or a professional can help elevate the level of your own bonsai. Howevere; the original premise that gaining any credible level without professional help is impossible, is, and was, and will for ever continue to be-----crap.

I've been in the hobby for more then 15 years, and consider myself to be more then 90% self taught. Almost all of the trees I have were acquired, styled and maintained by me for years before I started taking classes...and I honestly think I did a pretty damn good job acquiring good stock and getting them started down the path that leads to good or even great bonsai.

But...

...I joined the Atlanta Bonsai Society in October, 2009. This club routinely flies in talent like Kathy Shaner, Ted Matson, Suthin, etc., and I started taking several workshops with them each year, and sitting in on their critiques almost monthly. In 2010, I started helping to maintain a public bonsai collection in Kennesaw, GA., under the guidance of Rodney Clemmons. Anyone can take a look at my tree progressions and make their own conclusions as to whether the exposure to people like those named above had an impact on the quality of my trees.

 

[Adair M]

I've been doing bonsai for 40 years. And, now I even teach a few classes about JBP techniques.

A year ago, I started the Intensive series with Boon. And my trees are FAR better now. Prior to starting the Intensives, I had purchased Boon's DVD series, and while that helped a lot, the Intensives really allowed me to progress.

Why? At the Intensives, we work on Boon's trees. These are advanced, highly refined trees. Trees far more advanced than anything I had ever worked on before. The level of detail, the high quality of work, the precision required to maintain and advance these trees is very demanding.

When you study these trees, as we pull needles, remove old wire, select buds, decandle, etc., you come to appreciate that while they are highly ramified (lots of branches/twigs) they are also "simple" in structure. They "follow the rules". For instance, they all would have "alternating branches". That is, a branch comes to a fork, one side branch may entend to the left. Next fork, the side branch goes to the right. And so on. No place has a center, a left and a right. Or two left side branches and then a right side.

Now, is this just because he has great material? No, it's because he's worked on the trees for years, and selected the proper branches when they were small. And, he's taken the time to grow them out.

In Japan, the apprentices learn on advanced trees. Not beginner trees or raw stock. We try to do it exactly opposite of the way the Japanese have learned bonsai. We try to teach a beginner to start with raw stock and "envision" what a great bonsai would be. How does a beginner know what makes a great bonsai great if he's never seen one? Working on advanced stock, or "finished" trees allows one to learn how to appreciate the elements that make that tree look "finished".

Now, once you have the technique, understand what the finished goal is (or should be), you have the tools to take raw stock and get it started in the proper direction.

Don't get me wrong... it may be possible for some to ever take a lesson, and do well. But for most of us, we flounder.

Someone made the point about taking golf or tennis lessons. They help, for sure. (I played tennis in college.) To really improve, play with someone better than you. I used to play collegiate level tennis. I used to have friends who went on to play in the Pro level tournaments. And when they came back from the Circuit, we'd play, and they would be REALLY great! And blow me off the court. But, playing against them made ME better player. When I would then play against my regular competition, after playing with my Pro friends, I would blow my regular competition away! Unfortunately, my improved game wouldn't last when my Pro friends went back on the Circuit, it takes continued practice to keep up the advanced game.

This is why the Intensive series is a series. Boon teaches 3 classes a year, and his program goes for three years. One class is not enough. It takes repetition and practice to develop and master the skills and techniques required to perform at the top levels of any specialized endeavor.

So, I say that the guy who studied in Japan and is telling the beginner he needs a master to guide him is being honest and is giving sage advice.

 

[Vance Wood]

, I say that the guy who studied in Japan and is telling the beginner he needs a master to guide him is being honest and is giving sage advice.

I agree with the concept of having a master teacher and even going to Japan, what the OP was told was not what you posted. He was told that it was impossible for him to even practice bonsai as a hobby without this kind of guidance.

The thing is this: I just went to a bonsai nursery, the most respected in this country judging its quality. So I'm talking with the owner (bonsai artist with some recognition, he studied in japan I don't know for how long) and he constantly came up with the notion that you cannot learn by yourself, you need guidance (for some context: he offered a 5 hour class for something like US$200), you need a master, you can be a real good at horticulture but you cannot learn the art part of the bonsai.

In truth you cannot learn the Art part of bonsai if it is not in you; even if you study for 20 years with the greatest bonsai master in the world.

Personally I don't know what most people think of my bonsai. I do know that there are a few who happen to be the students of one particular bonsai master that think my trees are crap and mediocre at best. That's OK I am not going to make the world stage or would want to. But the fact remains that I am at least 99% self taught. I have watched carefully many master's work but have not attended their classes; choosing between feeding a family and feeding my bonsai fetish is kind of a no brainer in my book. Am I cheap? Well, I guess if choosing to make a mortgage payment instead of signing up for a bonsai class or going over to Japan to study for a couple of years is cheap then I am cheap. Have I accomplished anything? I don't know. I suspect in the end when we all feed the maggots we will all be pretty much the same. I have lived my life the best I can and done the most with my love of bonsai as I have been able; the blessings of God have provided the results and the rest.

 

[Poink88]

No one questions that learning with a mentor/master will help but the goal is not to be great or to master, just to learn & enjoy the hobby.

I believe this is the gist of it.

...I'm talking with the owner ... and he constantly came up with the notion that you cannot learn by yourself, you need guidance..., you need a master, ...you cannot learn the art part of the bonsai...

What do you think about this? Is this real at all?

 

[Vance Wood]

No one questions that learning with a mentor/master will help but the goal is not to be great or to master, just to learn & enjoy the hobby.

I believe this is the gist of it.

Here again it is really difficult to make a determination without visual evidence. Someone can boast in their ability to walk on water-----?

 

[Poink88]

Here again it is really difficult to make a determination without visual evidence. Someone can boast in their ability to walk on water-----?

What are you saying Vance? I am lost.

 

[Anthony]

Yesum Adair,

it is the subtle qualities, the experience that you pay for, or risk re-inventing the wheel.

I have no way of qualifying what goes on in Chile, but two heads are often better than one. If the "master" has trees that look good in Escobar090's eyes, well he will have to decide how deep his pockets are.
Good Day
Anthony

* I/we are only self taught in that no Japanese/Chinese/Other masters ever gave us lessons, but I/we did spends hours studying from books and talking to those better than us.
No deserted islands and just digging up stuff.

The art training is however a big advantage, since it allows one to simply look and analyse a design.

 

[Vance Wood]

What are you saying Vance? I am lost.

You have this guy saying you can't learn bonsai without -----etc. But; does anyone have any evidence of whether or not he can produce (evidence of his own teaching) or is he just flatulating in church? I have always had a problem with people setting the bar at a certain level they cannot achieve. But; are quick to suggest, or demand, that you achieve this level. That's why I tend to call people out when I think I am being fed Bull Shit or suspect that someone is reciting Bull Shit they have heard.

 

[Vance Wood]

Yesum Adair,

it is the subtle qualities, the experience that you pay for, or risk re-inventing the wheel.

I have no way of qualifying what goes on in Chile, but two heads are often better than one. If the "master" has trees that look good in Escobar090's eyes, well he will have to decide how deep his pockets are.
Good Day
Anthony

* I/we are only self taught in that no Japanese/Chinese/Other masters ever gave us lessons, but I/we did spends hours studying from books and talking to those better than us.
No deserted islands and just digging up stuff.

The art training is however a big advantage, since it allows one to simply look and analyse a design.

I agree but sadly that is not the education some of these people will give you credit for. In fact it may well work against you, especially if word gets around that you are self taught. If you are any good those who have studied in Japan etc. are likely to look at your work sideways. They tend to look at you as not having paid your dues and being a threat to them.

 

[A Random User]

Just wanted to add two things to this discussion...

The first being that $200 dollars for a class is for
The most part a fair price.... so, if the OP was to
Take the class I am sure it would set them on their
Way...

Having said this, the amount of knowledge one might
Learn I think would greatly depend on one's own
Knowledge. Personally I think if one is just starting
Out they might be better off peddling around with
Some trees, books, the internet, etc. For a while until
They begin to understand some of the basics.

If not, a 5 hr session will be spent mostly on why
Rocks are glued on the top of soil of the trees
Comming from big box stores, and why trees with
Golf balls don't necessarily make the best bonsai.

Lastly, let us not forget that anyone can buy a ticket
To japan and pay to learn... this doesn't mean that
The person that does is anymore competent or
Necessarily better than someone who does not.

Also find it rather hard to believe that a Japanese
Master just plops anyone down in front of a 500 yr
Old tree and says have at it ??? I would have to
Say there is more than likely a vetting process that
The master puts individuals through, and I can
Assure you that beginners do not work on world class
Trees.

I think there is some confusion here... most of the
Folks including people like Ryan Niel and Bjorn had
Been doing bonsai before taking a trip across the water.
I mean... I know everyone is fascinated by Japan... but
People in Japan poop too !!!

 

[A Random User]

When I took a trip up NY to the ABS convention
And styled my tree for the new talent comp. One of
The instructors that was teaching classes there, I
Will not mention names... who had studied for yrs
In japan under a predominate Japanese master
Told me after his class while I was watching him
Finish the work on a class demo tree, that I had
Left to much foilage on my competition tree...
That the Japanese don't do that....

That I was to remove almost all the foilage when
Styling then I guess allow it to return at a later time ???

I just said OK... even though I knew not having even
Been to Japan, that this was not the case... that in
Fact it was just the opposite, that a tree, unless it is
Pre-bonsai material, should always be kept in a
Presentable state... including mossed.

So, I think sometimes our views of what folks do
In Japan is often misconstrued with what we imagine
Folks in Japan should be doing...
Maybe more time should be spent instead imagining
What we should be doing ???

 

[Anthony]

Sawgrass,

is it that a tree should be in a - tidy - state, or in an exhibition state?

Moss we can grow easily in hot sun, but we can also place it a day before an exhibition.

With the local trees, now being worked on, one has to establish what is health and then the shape that the tree works best with. The level of branchlets, density of leaves, surface roots or no, and characteristics of age.
All of this before another age starts to conventionalise into a standardised set of shapes, as seen in the Japanese work on say the Zelkova.

So one can take from the outside world, but we have to create the ultimate state of refinement, as seen in nature from selections taken from so many trees of the same type.

There is bound to be some coarseness, some rough edges, but that is half the enjoyment, to go where no one has gone before.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Eric Group]

Well they say it takes about 10 years of doing something to be considered an expert at it right? (I have read that before anyway, maybe it is up for debate, it that was the standard I have been given) I have been doing this hobby/ art form/ life style (what DO you call bonsai?) for a little over a decade now, and I feel like I am JUST NOW starting to get the hang of things a little bit! My progression was slowed I will admit because I had a bad summer or two where I lost some trees and had to kind of re-assess how to do things. This started about 5 years ago probably... I took a look around at the trees I had and realized I had been fooling around mostly with stock that was too immature, tryi to push things along faster than people said you were "supposed to" because I thought I had always been good with plants and could cut some corners ( quick aside- I see a few guys talking like they can do that on here from time to time, like they can set new molds for bonsai and how to style and care for their plants... That was me about 6-7 years ago- IT DOESN'T WORK. Trees are trees no matter who is growing them and after two or three years you might not even see what kind of long term damage you have done by trying to "speed things up" but over the next couple years it WILL catchup to you... Trust the word of a man who has been cari for plants his whole life)- so I decided I would pull back a little bit, work harder to learn how to CARE FOR my trees and keep them thriving instead of worrying about styling them, i planted a bunch of stuff in the ground to let it get more mature, and after a couple years I am finally starting to dig up a few trees and I feel like I am starting all over again. This time around though, I already know all the basics, I have better stock to start with and I already have most all the tools I need, more pots than I can use and I have finally gotten a good combination of ingredients to make a viable bonsai soil of my own which saves me about 35-50$ a BAG compared to buying the pre- made stuff... So I feel like I am starting off smarter. I know a few "bonsai people" in my area now and I hope to get involved with a study group so I can learn from people who actually know what they are doing...

Telling you all this just to say that I am pretty much self taught- read dozens of books, watched videos, forums like this one... But if I was going back ten years to start all over I would DEFINITELY have taken some sort of classes, gotten some kind of mentor... Early on so I could have advanced my skills to something close to this point back then... And probably would have a yard full of nice trees today instead of a bunch of "potensai". Sure, I could have more of my trees in bonsai containers than do I now, but my goal now is quality over quantity... Not quality from a show perspective, but just to my personal satisfaction...

Yes, you CAN teach yourself how to do bonsai at least to a hobbyist level, but it will go much faster and smoother if you get instruction EARLY rather than later. So, everyone who is telling you to look into this class- IF this guy is legit and has been producing quality trees- is giving you solid advice IMO.

 

[Anthony]

Vance,

in the self taught world of Fine Art the complaint is normally, not enough attention paid to subtle qualities, plus most of the self taught stuff is just copied from a photo or other image, very, very little observation from the real world.
[ and if you reproduce from a photo, painting, drawing or tree, then it will show well on the internet, especially if you shrink back to the original size of the photo.

Reality, the object seen will look weird, but the producer may never know.]

In bonsai, it is branchlet density, leaf size, root placement, and overall proportion on the tree.
Often you see trees with thick trunks and thin branches. So much so that the new eye, complains when a tree shows up in proportion.

Plus, you have the look, the standardised and conventional/established view of trees used frequently in Bonsai - J.B.P, Maples, Zelkova and so on. So from what I /we have seen is, one has to show a few standardised shapes, easy for all to judge, and then jump off into the unknown.
Plays the same in Fine Art.

So if you have been getting lip over say, your beautiful mughos, then you have a choice, your trees, your taste, your studio, or give the critics what they want, and then slowly evolve to new shapes.

As I typed before, hobby [ do as you see correct ] or professional [ pay the dues and hopefully gain the appropriate respect, because at some point you will sell, or maintain the trees of others for a fee.]
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,

in the self taught world of Fine Art the complaint is normally, not enough attention paid to subtle qualities, plus most of the self taught stuff is just copied from a photo or other image, very, very little observation from the real world.
[ and if you reproduce from a photo, painting, drawing or tree, then it will show well on the internet, especially if you shrink back to the original size of the photo.

Reality, the object seen will look weird, but the producer may never know.]

In bonsai, it is branchlet density, leaf size, root placement, and overall proportion on the tree.
Often you see trees with thick trunks and thin branches. So much so that the new eye, complains when a tree shows up in proportion.

Plus, you have the look, the standardised and conventional/established view of trees used frequently in Bonsai - J.B.P, Maples, Zelkova and so on. So from what I /we have seen is, one has to show a few standardised shapes, easy for all to judge, and then jump off into the unknown.
Plays the same in Fine Art.

So if you have been getting lip over say, your beautiful mughos, then you have a choice, your trees, your taste, your studio, or give the critics what they want, and then slowly evolve to new shapes.

As I typed before, hobby [ do as you see correct ] or professional [ pay the dues and hopefully gain the appropriate respect, because at some point you will sell, or maintain the trees of others for a fee.]
Good Day
Anthony

I disagree with most of what you have said here but that might just be an issue of language. However your statement:

So if you have been getting lip over say, your beautiful mughos, then you have a choice, your trees, your taste, your studio, or give the critics what they want, and then slowly evolve to new shapes.


The critics want me to go away. I have come to a point in my bonsai adventure that I am not going to do anything just to appease someone who does not like, understand, approve or even understand what I do.

 

[Anthony]

Vance,

the concept of the - Hobby - was brought to Trinidad by the English, who were brought in by Texaco.

Texaco built 3 oil camps and provided niceties for it's employees at the upper level. Pools, soccer fields, golf courses, various centres for pottery, art and so on.
You had to be essential services to be allowed to live on the camps. They also had private schooling and the idea was discovery, through education, and less of the get a job.

The hobby as was explained to me, was something one did [ started around say 9 to 12 years of age ] and it was done quietly, only towards self growth. You could share interests with others, but that was not a necessity.
You could do it badly, efficiently or exceptionally, as you wish.
There was no need for a club, or other.
It was a self propelled discipline/interest.

Entry into the local Trinidadian world, was a shock, hobbies are not encouraged. Fortunately for me I had a friend who came from the Oil camp brat world, and he passed on the English ideas to me, and they took.

Bonsai in Trinidad, as practiced by the Chinese [ 1900's] was secretive. Bonsai later on became just friends going around to look at trees.
It did not work when Bonsai was offered to John Public ------------- what good is a hobby, as it consumes $$ and makes no $$, unless your hidden agenda, was to make $$.

So for good or for bad, as a hobby goes [ before the Internet ] you did as you wished.
Images sent out to others on the Internet clubs, will end up with a % of irritation.

Still unless you plan to sell or maintain someone elses trees [ as I stated before ] who cares.

The stock of Trinidad, is presently folk whose ancestors wanted a better life hande to them. Those who wanted a better life in the homeland, stood their ground.
So we have a society of folk who just want convenience, comfort and $$$. This has eveolved into tiny pieces of land [ land costs mightily ] with big houses [ concrete and bricks are cheap, as is paint ] that eat up all of the land. These structures are still 10 x 10 x 10 internally, as this is what they know, and the real cost ------- the internal decoration --------- comes from plastic , plastic and more plastic.
The idea is to show off.
Hobbies don't fit in.

So my personal attitude has been to enjoy the Bonsai, read as much as I can, look as much as I can and talk to those who know.
BUT at the end of it all, it is just a quiet hobby, where comments made on design will always be considered seriously.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

The critics want me to go away. I have come to a point in my bonsai adventure that I am not going to do anything just to appease someone who does not like, understand, approve or even understand what I do.

Wow...this almost came from my mouth.

Like Anthony, it is a hobby for me...I have no intent to be a master or great...only to enjoy. Part of the enjoyment though is to learn and create better bonsai. If I can make a few bucks while enjoying it (to fund the hobby), I honestly won't mind it.

 

[Poink88]

The critics want me to go away. I have come to a point in my bonsai adventure that I am not going to do anything just to appease someone who does not like, understand, approve or even understand what I do.

Wow...this almost came from my mouth.

Like Anthony, it is a hobby for me...I have no intent to be a master or great...only to enjoy. Part of the enjoyment though is to learn and create better bonsai. If I can make a few bucks while enjoying it (to fund the hobby), I honestly won't mind.

 

[Adair M]

Someone said they find it hard to believe that a master would sit a newbie down in front of a 500 year old masterpiece and say "Go at it". True.

But, at the Intensives, Boon gives instruction, demonstrates, and carefully monitors all new students with a small task. Lets say the task is needle pulling on pines. We view a video , study written diagrams, and watch Boon demonstrate. He will choose an appropriate tree and say to pull needles on a particular branch. Then come and review your work. He makes suggestions, then the student goes on to the next branch. And so on until he demonstrates a mastery sufficient to go on to better material.

Then a new topic is introduced, like wiring. And so it goes...

 

[Poink88]

Let's not forget that in some countries...people are paid a lot less than here in the US. To some, $200 represent a month's earnings (if that).

I hope we do not advocate they cannot enjoy this hobby just because they are poor. They may need it more than we do.