Satsuki azalea out of my depth
- Thread starter RoadManDenDron
- Start date
badatusernames
Omono
I spent a lot of words trying to explain my question in my other thread and it turns out that this image was all I needed
That’s part of why I want the full series of these books, I don’t know if they have an azalea book but the ones I have are great
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Folks:
This is a good first book to start with if it is still in print. Shohin but applies to all sizes. Great on basics. Nuances not so much…biut most books aren’t.
The Japanese seem to rework these over and over. @Chuah showed me one many years old awhile back. Used Amazon.jp.
Also timing on the calendars will need adjusting to one’s location. Not a fan of their spraying so much, but those living East of the Rockies may have more need.
Get out your Google Translate and pencil!
Cheers
DSD sends
This is a good first book to start with if it is still in print. Shohin but applies to all sizes. Great on basics. Nuances not so much…biut most books aren’t.
The Japanese seem to rework these over and over. @Chuah showed me one many years old awhile back. Used Amazon.jp.
Also timing on the calendars will need adjusting to one’s location. Not a fan of their spraying so much, but those living East of the Rockies may have more need.
Get out your Google Translate and pencil!
Cheers
DSD sends
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
@Deep Sea Diver I have another rhododendron I have been given responsibility for that is very leggy, would you say its too late to cut it back and expect backbudding?
Also to update on the original tree:
I was concerned at first because it sat still much longer than anticipated, I suspect a heatwave we had after the cut back put the tree into summer dormancy?
It suddenly burst to life with the ends of branches filling out, and thankfully backbudding soon followed
I never noticed any red leaves before but these new leaves are definitely red, what's that about?
Thank you for your time
Also to update on the original tree:
I was concerned at first because it sat still much longer than anticipated, I suspect a heatwave we had after the cut back put the tree into summer dormancy?
It suddenly burst to life with the ends of branches filling out, and thankfully backbudding soon followed
I never noticed any red leaves before but these new leaves are definitely red, what's that about?
Thank you for your time
Attachments
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks so much for asking. Nice tree, with lots of possibilities!
Short answer, yes. But should you? Not now. The odds of cuts to bare wood back budding in my experiment on cultivars we have usually backbud at 60% success rate at this time of the year. But depends on cultivar.
btw: Did the gifted mention the cultivar?
It’s new to you? If so, fertilize it well as we’ve discussed previously with the other azalea. Give it proper sun and figure out its water needs, which should increase in the next weeks. Let’s watch it progress for now.
Shoot images back in a month and let’s discuss an action plan.
While waiting, check the trunk thoroughly for unsealed cuts, especially larger ones. If any are there any, shave these back flush to the trunk/branch to clean wood, then seal. Top Jin let it dry, then green top cut putty.
Also clean moss and soil out of each crevice down to wood and clear to the nebari. Please seal any cuts in cambium w/Top Jin. We usually use bent nose tweezers to stat with if they have shighty rounded tips.
Best,
DSD sends
Short answer, yes. But should you? Not now. The odds of cuts to bare wood back budding in my experiment on cultivars we have usually backbud at 60% success rate at this time of the year. But depends on cultivar.
btw: Did the gifted mention the cultivar?
It’s new to you? If so, fertilize it well as we’ve discussed previously with the other azalea. Give it proper sun and figure out its water needs, which should increase in the next weeks. Let’s watch it progress for now.
Shoot images back in a month and let’s discuss an action plan.
While waiting, check the trunk thoroughly for unsealed cuts, especially larger ones. If any are there any, shave these back flush to the trunk/branch to clean wood, then seal. Top Jin let it dry, then green top cut putty.
Also clean moss and soil out of each crevice down to wood and clear to the nebari. Please seal any cuts in cambium w/Top Jin. We usually use bent nose tweezers to stat with if they have shighty rounded tips.
Best,
DSD sends
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
Wow @Deep Sea Diver you really have a skill for providing the exact information needed! I will start another thread for this tree in due time,
It has a fair few big open deadwood chunks I assume we're from untreated cuts in the past,
I've had it a couple months on a healthy feed schedule as advised for the satsuki in this thread,
No info re: cultivar, we can't even agree on rhodie vs azalea on this one!
As for the satsuki in this thread, I assume I wait til next spring to cut back to my new backbuds? allowing the tree to rebuild strength from the cutback I just put it through?
It has a fair few big open deadwood chunks I assume we're from untreated cuts in the past,
I've had it a couple months on a healthy feed schedule as advised for the satsuki in this thread,
No info re: cultivar, we can't even agree on rhodie vs azalea on this one!
As for the satsuki in this thread, I assume I wait til next spring to cut back to my new backbuds? allowing the tree to rebuild strength from the cutback I just put it through?
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks!
Can you please post some clear images for the original tree now?
Also please start a new thread for new tree next time as it gets confusing to have multiple trees on a thread. Would like to see images of the deadwood on it.
Cheers
DSD sends
Can you please post some clear images for the original tree now?
Also please start a new thread for new tree next time as it gets confusing to have multiple trees on a thread. Would like to see images of the deadwood on it.
Cheers
DSD sends
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
Here are some (hopefully clearer) pics of the response from the pruning to 2s and 2s @Deep Sea Diver
There is new growth from the tips as well as backbudding appearing
I am intrigued about the red leaves, never noticed these before
There is new growth from the tips as well as backbudding appearing
I am intrigued about the red leaves, never noticed these before
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Ok, much better, thank you so much.
Very nice! The tree is showing some promise.
Would let the tree gather up resources and get stronger this year… it may continue to bud back the way it’s going. Then cut back in early spring. Reduce the remaining 3’s and push back, but leave at least 2 new buds if possible.
Cheers
DSD sends
Very nice! The tree is showing some promise.
Would let the tree gather up resources and get stronger this year… it may continue to bud back the way it’s going. Then cut back in early spring. Reduce the remaining 3’s and push back, but leave at least 2 new buds if possible.
Cheers
DSD sends
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
Some of the flowers from this year
@Deep Sea Diver i was disappointed to find this still has compost style soil as a rootball
Should I prioritise repotting into kanuma over chasing foliage back?
Or maybe is both still acceptable together?
nurvbonsai
Mame
Just chiming in to ask if this should work for this starter I got a few weeks ago.
Attachments
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
That explains a lot. Nice flowers!
Please do your normal post flowering pruning, capturing the excess cuttings from white flowers, esp the ones with red if propagation is in the picture.
Plan on a complete root wash next year.
Can you please post some whole tree images? With a meter stick or scale near by.
Cheers
DSD sends
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
Thanks @Deep Sea Diver
Any idea why I suddenly got so much red flowers? There were much more white last year
Here's some pics of it now
Any idea why I suddenly got so much red flowers? There were much more white last year
Here's some pics of it now
Attachments
leatherback
The Treedeemer
could be pruning. Important to leave on the light colored flowers, as those are the base color. You cut too many of those branches and slowly you loose the white.
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Yep, at least partially what happened. If I. Recall correctly the initial goal was to get the tree healthy. Looks like we are nearing this point.
Please put a twist tie on each of the white or white and red flowers. Do not hard prune these sites, just to 2’s for now. Also propagate the excess branchlets from around these flowers.
Are all the rest red… or is there a pink variation? If red, these branches are targets for hard cut backs this year. If pink, that as different story.
Best,
DSD sends
Please put a twist tie on each of the white or white and red flowers. Do not hard prune these sites, just to 2’s for now. Also propagate the excess branchlets from around these flowers.
Are all the rest red… or is there a pink variation? If red, these branches are targets for hard cut backs this year. If pink, that as different story.
Best,
DSD sends
RoadManDenDron
Chumono
@Deep Sea Diver understood
There are a couple pinks and a couple red with white tips
When you say hard cutback, it's ok to cut back to bare wood? Or is it better to thin to 2s and 2s and cut back to back buds later?
There are a couple pinks and a couple red with white tips
When you say hard cutback, it's ok to cut back to bare wood? Or is it better to thin to 2s and 2s and cut back to back buds later?
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Azaleas appear to have no problem when cut back to bare wood. The response is almost always masses of new buds which grow into new shoots. Just trimming the tips rarely gets new buds back along the branches, in my experience. If I need back buds I prune just above where I need the new shoots.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Long response… sorry.
It’s a likely response. However a landscape azalea’s response to hard pruning is sometimes different than potted Satsuki azaleas. Don’t know why, except for the data Peter Warren shared about the new cultivars (from sports?) over time are increasingly weaker.
The data that I first noted certain cultivars response to hard pruning was varied was found in Callahan’s book, based on data from Gondo’s work in Northern California. In it Callaham noted certain satsuki’s that had issues backbudding to hard pruning.. Research shows sports of these family do likewise.
Experiments in our yard showed this to be valid, yet somewhat random in a few cultivar cases…. Backbud in some cases and die off in others… on the same plant.
This aside, looking back at your pruning, it appeared to all be back to green growth, so there is really not techinique issue that caused dominant flowers to appear.
Hard cutbacks aren’t going to change this situation.
Based upon the data, this Satsuki has five flower variations. These are solid white, red, and pink flowers and white with red splotches and red with white splotches. Possibly @Glaucus might recognize this cultivar.
Cutting to twos doesn’t inherently induce backbudding a lot.
Another technique to help backbudding besides cutting back hard is to remove the flowers and cut across the base, leaving just a bit of green growth.
Here is an experiment where this was done. Once back budding occurred, the branch was cut further back. This particular cultivar responded really well. Not all do so.
Long story short. Mark the all reds now with twist ties etc. Decide whether to take these off or cut back to old wood, or through the base. After flowers are removed experiment on this cultivar with both techniques
Also would mark the white with red flowers and propagate some of the branchlets on these.
Since cutting this twos causes the branch to get longer, would decide if to cut to twos, offered through the base systematically, depending upon the situation.
[sQUOTE="nurvbonsai, post: 1185748, member: 57849"]
Just chiming in to ask if this should work for this starter I got a few weeks ago.
[/QUOTE]
Miracid or Miracle grow is a decent fertilizer for azaleas. Please use 1/3 strength to start, then 1/2 strength if all ok every 2-3 weeks, but not on hot days.
Cheers
DSD sends
It’s a likely response. However a landscape azalea’s response to hard pruning is sometimes different than potted Satsuki azaleas. Don’t know why, except for the data Peter Warren shared about the new cultivars (from sports?) over time are increasingly weaker.
The data that I first noted certain cultivars response to hard pruning was varied was found in Callahan’s book, based on data from Gondo’s work in Northern California. In it Callaham noted certain satsuki’s that had issues backbudding to hard pruning.. Research shows sports of these family do likewise.
Experiments in our yard showed this to be valid, yet somewhat random in a few cultivar cases…. Backbud in some cases and die off in others… on the same plant.
This aside, looking back at your pruning, it appeared to all be back to green growth, so there is really not techinique issue that caused dominant flowers to appear.
Hard cutbacks aren’t going to change this situation.
Based upon the data, this Satsuki has five flower variations. These are solid white, red, and pink flowers and white with red splotches and red with white splotches. Possibly @Glaucus might recognize this cultivar.
Cutting to twos doesn’t inherently induce backbudding a lot.
Another technique to help backbudding besides cutting back hard is to remove the flowers and cut across the base, leaving just a bit of green growth.
Here is an experiment where this was done. Once back budding occurred, the branch was cut further back. This particular cultivar responded really well. Not all do so.
Long story short. Mark the all reds now with twist ties etc. Decide whether to take these off or cut back to old wood, or through the base. After flowers are removed experiment on this cultivar with both techniques
Also would mark the white with red flowers and propagate some of the branchlets on these.
Since cutting this twos causes the branch to get longer, would decide if to cut to twos, offered through the base systematically, depending upon the situation.
[sQUOTE="nurvbonsai, post: 1185748, member: 57849"]
Just chiming in to ask if this should work for this starter I got a few weeks ago.
[/QUOTE]
Miracid or Miracle grow is a decent fertilizer for azaleas. Please use 1/3 strength to start, then 1/2 strength if all ok every 2-3 weeks, but not on hot days.
Cheers
DSD sends
