Question on Technique...

[Smoke]

Chris, Jim is a long time SOB and studies with Boon immensley. When you come out in Jan. just ask him to take you to his place, you can take as many back with you as you can stuff in your suitcase.

The larger one shaped like a triangle is about 14 inches tall. The other one is a shot from Boon's exhibit in 2005. It is about 9 inches tall. Yes he wraps many of them with raffia and some he does not. It depends on the whip. He grows the whips from cuttings so he has the material to do this with. Most of the whips are about 3/16 in diameter. They are put out just about like the one I just showed.

There is a huge difference in what Mas Ishii does and what Jim Gremel does. If you see the two side by side the difference is very noticable. I very much like what Jim does. Mas Ishii on the left and one of his trees and of course at the shohin convention in 2002. And the shimpaku style of Jim Gremel on the right. Mas' trees all have a very upright attitude with much twisting of the skinned part over the live part. In fact much of the live part actually grafts itself to the edge of the exposed cambium after the skinning. The shari is also redone after the trees reach salable condition.

You all be the judge.

 

[Chris Johnston]

LOL I know Jim and have ordered from him in the past (wire, don'tcha know). I never seem to have any extra time, what with the show and all, but this year there will certainly be plenty of reason for me to make the time!!!

 

[Attila Soos]

Al,

What Jim does is something entirely different. Those are not shohin and mame trees, and they are contorted by wiring, adding shari to it.

What I am talking about is the bonsai that Chris posted in this thread. This is done on a miniature scale, compared to Jim Gremel's. So, those coils that you see are created by bark-stripping. The shimpaku that I saw on Lindsey Farr's video were also very small.

I am really not trying to convice anyone here about this, in fact I wasn't even sure that I should share this here.

But since you guys were so curious, I obliged..

If you don't believe me, then forget about this technique, I won't regret it at all. In fact, I do encourage you to forget it. I don't mind less competition.

 

[Attila Soos]

Hmmm, let me see if I can compress this...wire first so there are some curves in the material, as much as you can get, then remove the wire and strip the bark in ways that will emphasize the bends as the tree grows around them?

I couldn't put it better myself.

1.Do all the wiring you want. Let the wood thicken for a while (dont forget to take off the wire).
2. Do the bark stripping to emphasize the coiling on a miniature scale.

Simple, isn't it. And it makes sense. No rocket science here.

Good night gang.

 

[Attila Soos]

I have seen many twisted and gnarly junipers with no dead wood on them.

Me too.

If you have not seen the phenomenon that I am talking about, then there is little point in trying to describe it to you. You need to see it, to believe it.

May be this helps:

Have you seen the kind of deadwood where the trunk is almost flat, and at the very outer edge there is a live vein, just like a ridge? This is the same phenomenon, where the live vein keeps growing on the dead wood, creating some strange shapes. You must have seen this, there are a few of these naturally formed California juniper masterpieces that often pop up on exhibits here in So. Cal. Harry has a few of these. And he did not create the deadwood and the live vein that grows on top of it.

Again, if you havent's seen them, may be you will in the future.

 

[Attila Soos]

OK everyone, I've found an example amongs bonsai pictures taken by me here in Los Angeles. This demonstrates how nature can do what we are trying to achieve with bark-stripping:

Here is a case where the live vein grows on a deadwood, creating the flat shape. This has nothing to do with the wind-shaped junipers that have no deadwood. This juniper has a lot of natural deadwood.

The flat shape was created by the live vein that kept growing on the deadwood.

We can create this artificially, by first creating the deadwood, and then letting the live vein grow on top of it. As you can see, this is a large tree. It will never happen on a shohin or mame-sized tree. This is what's so great about this technique: we can apply it on a miniature scale.

Got it?

 

[irene_b]

Very Educational....I appreciate you fellas discussing it....
Now what other "Bonsai Secrets" are you holding in?
How about you guys starting a thread on advanced techy stuff like this?
Mom

 

[Rick Moquin]

I became aware of this technique about 6 months ago, after watching Linsey Farr's video series on the Internet. In one of the episodes (don't remember which one), a professional Japanese shohin bonsai grower was showing his little junipers, and kept mentioning over and over the technique of bark-stripping on the lower trunk of his junipers. I don't remember that he described the technique in detail, but that's when the lightbulb came on in my head. I've been playing with this idea for a long time, and I remember talking to Mas Ishii about his little contorted junipers, but he never really gave away his technique. Lindsey's video helped me to figure it out.

Thanks Attila for deciphering what he was explaining (episode 10). I also saw this video and at the time couldn't put 2 and 2 together for the lack of a better word. Now that you have expalined it in english and reviweing the video it makes alot of sense. Having said that, that is not the only episode where he talks about it, theer sare several tidbits throughout the series. When I have time I'll see if I can't find all the episodes where he talks about it. The snipit I am talking about is probably only about 30 seconds.

This is what I was able to extrapolate from the video after rewatching it. The wire is left on to produce swelling and scaring (this can also be found in the "Pines" book. I think it is also important to note that the shaping and wiring is not done so haphazardly but with definite purpose in mind, wrt direction of growth. In one segment you can definitely see the scaring in the middle of the shari. It is only noticeable because we know what is taken place here, but does not look artificial.

I definite advanced technique that may not of been possible to learn had it not been for Lindsay's video and your explaination.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Al,

Can you go into greater detail in explaining Jim's technique, as I'm having difficulty following it and making a mental image.

 

[Bonsaiforlife]

It is common to see trees around here that were growing straight untill a buck deer or bull elk came along and rubbed his antlers on the tree removing the bark from one side of the tree, the result it a straight tree with a crescent moon shape in the middle of it where the bark is only growing on one side and causing the tree to deform.

 

[Attila Soos]

The wire is left on to produce swelling and scaring (this can also be found in the "Pines" book. I think it is also important to note that the shaping and wiring is not done so haphazardly but with definite purpose in mind, wrt direction of growth. In one segment you can definitely see the scaring in the middle of the shari. It is only noticeable because we know what is taken place here, but does not look artificial.

I definite advanced technique that may not of been possible to learn had it not been for Lindsay's video and your explaination.

Hi Rick,

Thank you so much for your imput. The above piece of observation is a great help when applying this technique. The main difficulty that I've found when removing the bark is that the only guidance you have is the mark of your pen or a chalk-mark. It's easy to describe it with words, but it's actually very difficult to cut the bark in an expedient manner, in order to achieve a pleasing result. On the other hand, if you apply the wire as a guideline first, and let the bark swell, that gives you a much better idea of how the final shape will look like, and it is also much easier to strip the bark by following the mark left by the wire. The wire basically gives you the start of the spiral that you will be developing.

I may have helped you understand the technique better, but your additional explanation helped me enormously in the applcation of it. Thanks a lot! It made my post here worthwhile.

(Rick's post gives me hope that there are people in this community who are actually helpful in developing ideas new to us, instead of just resisting everyting that is out of our comfort zone)

 

[Anonymous User]

Okay, now I need to find about 50 three year old Junipers....


Thanks a lot Attila.


Will

 

[Attila Soos]

the result it a straight tree with a crescent moon shape in the middle of it where the bark is only growing on one side and causing the tree to deform.

Very astute observation, that further proves the point: in addition to wiring and carving, we can manipulate the shape of a tree by removing bark on certain parts and encouraging bark growth on other parts. This technique is a great addition, if used sensibly and combined with the other, widely known techniques.

 

[Attila Soos]

Okay, now I need to find about 50 three year old Junipers....


Will

It's funny, but this is the way I used to think. People close to me say that when I do something, I do it big, in large scale. As you said, we don't just do 3 junipers, we do 50.

Wait until you reach the 1000 mark with your trees, then you'll say: may be I am getting over my head a little.

 

[Anonymous User]

Attila and Rick, thank you for taking the time to post these techniques here, real bonsai discussionis so refreshing!


Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Yes, thank you, Attila, Rick, and Al for the great responses to my question! I have learned a great deal in a short time and it has fueled my interest.

 

[Chris Johnston]

It's funny, but this is the way I used to think. People close to me say that when I do something, I do it big, in large scale. As you said, we don't just do 3 junipers, we do 50.

Wait until you reach the 1000 mark with your trees, then you'll say: may be I am getting over my head a little.

Now that I know youse guys are going to make thousands of these, perhaps I will just purchase them from you in the future!

 

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

Attila and Rick, thank you for taking the time to post these techniques here, real bonsai discussionis so refreshing!


Will

I agree....

Perhaps one of us could pm Lindsay Farr and point this thread out to him. Maybe he has more footage of this technique that was edited out or maybe he will take into consideration our interest in it and film a whole segment on this very interesting topic.

 

[irene_b]

I agree....

Perhaps one of us could pm Lindsay Farr and point this thread out to him. Maybe he has more footage of this technique that was edited out or maybe he will take into consideration our interest in it and film a whole segment on this very interesting topic.

Great Idea Jase!
Mom

 

[Chris Johnston]

I agree....

Perhaps one of us could pm Lindsay Farr and point this thread out to him. Maybe he has more footage of this technique that was edited out or maybe he will take into consideration our interest in it and film a whole segment on this very interesting topic.

Now there's a thinking man!