potentially an awesome nebari

[Adair M]

Grimmy,

Many beginners to bonsai hear the word "nebari", and find out it means "surface roots", and get confused thinking that "exposed roots" equates to nebari, and they don't have enough experience to know how to tell "good nebari" from "bad nebari".

The tree presented had a lot of "air roots". Which are generally considered "bad nebari". Except in the unusual cases, such as the example that I posted.

The tree I posted is a recent import from Japan that someone posted on Facebook. (I don't remember if it was imported to the USA or UK. Doesn't matter.)

That tree is not an "experiment", it is an accepted style. I did describe how to make one.

If you doubt these are relatively abundant, please google "exposed root azalea bonsai", then look at the Images. You will see many examples.

Here are a couple that are not azalea:







By the way, I do not subscribe to the "Naturalistic School" of bonsai as advocated by Walter Pall and others. I prefer more highly refined bonsai. I will agree that some can go overboard on the refinement to the extent the tree looks artificial. Occasionally, some of Bjorn's trees cross that line. I am guilty of the "perfectionist" charge, I strive for perfection, but have yet to achieve it! As a teacher of bonsai technique, I feel it is my duty to attempt to share my knowledge of technique as best I can so that others can be more successful at bonsai.

 

[whfarro]

Nebari vs negari vs just gnarly/ wild chunky unrefined surface roots

 

[Cypress187]

How can u say that nebari is not good, half of it is still in the ground (maybe there is hope?)

 

[Dav4]

How can u say that nebari is not good, half of it is still in the ground (maybe there is hope?)

...and the other half is an inch or two above the soil. Honestly, there's going to be reverse taper where those aerial roots are attached to the trunk, and we still don't know what the roots under the soil look like...and what's hidden is unlikely to make this material any better, unfortunately.

 

[GrimLore]

I have a tree that I think could have an awesome nebari in the future what do you think ànd how should I go about repotting it

Not being able to see the roots well I will give you some advice, it more then likely is possible but will take a bit of time and work.

1) Put it in a grow box contraption to give yourself some space.
2) Use a loose substrate and be certain you have the box deep enough that you can cover the existing roots AND root work.
3) When you plant it you will be able to see all the way around the plant at the base and the roots clearly.
4) Think fanning out what is there.
5) The large roots - think placement.
6) Decide which need to be cut and where they need to be grafted to in order to give you that nice radial pattern you want.
7) Get to work root grafting.
8) Make sure all is secured and cover all with substrate.
9) Wait 1 full year and uncover the work and see how it took and looks.
10) Repeat if needed or as needed until you have what you desire.

Grimmy

 

[Cypress187]

...and the other half is an inch or two above the soil. Honestly, there's going to be reverse taper where those aerial roots are attached to the trunk, and we still don't know what the roots under the soil look like...and what's hidden is unlikely to make this material any better, unfortunately.

Well, i tryed to stay positive

 

[Adair M]

Grimlore,

You admonish me about showing pictures of advanced trees to a beginner, and then you go on to suggest root grafting?

 

[GrimLore]

Grimlore,

You admonish me about showing pictures of advanced trees to a beginner, and then you go on to suggest root grafting?

I am certain he is capable of it and can learn from it... What I am trying to do is encourage him to try. It is a long journey my friend and we all must learn many things along the way. Would it not be better he try on this rather then a far more expensive and advanced plant? I did not admonish you - I just put it into perspective - you do great work man and it would be silly... I did and still do think the 7-UP example sucks - the rest are great! Lighten up - I am entitled to discuss things here as much as you are.

Grimmy

 

[Adair M]

Well, personally I think the better lesson for the OP to learn is how to choose better stock to begin with. Educate on what comprises good and bad nebari. Choose stock with nebari without major flaws.

Far easier to learn to do that than it is to struggle with poor material that require expert work to make presentable. Will he be able to stick it out long enough to see good results? Or decide that bonsai is too hard?

I know that if I was told that I had to perform a root graft on one of my first trees, I would have abandoned bonsai for another hobby!

You didn't like the azalea? Did you run the Google search? Like any of those?

 

[GrimLore]

That tree is not an "experiment", it is an accepted style. I did describe how to make one.

You showed and described how to make a shitty one - an experiment gone wrong, not natural for the plant as you are normally opposed to. The following plants posted struck a far more representation that "could" happen in nature. Never said you are a Naturalist but you are "quick" to tell ANYONE that they should not try to take their plant to let us say weeping if the plant does not normally grow that way... Perhaps you need to make up your own mind rather then tell others what to "think" or "do" with their property.

Well, personally I think the better lesson for the OP to learn is how to choose better stock to begin with.

You are to far advanced to perhaps understand that "others" cannot try, learn, and enjoy along the way - C'mon, you did the same thing for MANY years and SPENT a shit ton of money to get where you are. Now are you trying to tell ME that a person should just spend big dollars and "try" to grow and maintain ANY plant? Be serious - you KNOW it is far more better for a new person to learn on stock that does not involve eating rice to afford substrate... Over time things that work are lessons and time well spent.

I know that if I was told that I had to perform a root graft on one of my first trees, I would have abandoned bonsai for another hobby!

Bonsai does not work like that - It is your personal commitment and yours is strong now that you have reasonable knowledge. Don't bull shit me or anyone else here - it takes time and failure(s)

You didn't like the azalea?

I am a fan of Azalea just not as you presented - my turn to tell you again the one you posted sucked And again, no disrespect but WHY did you waste 10 years on it? Serious

Grimmy

 

[Adair M]

Grimmy, it's not my azalea! Sorry you don't like it.

You don't have to spend a lot of money to select stock that doesn't have flawed nebari.

So, let me get this straight...

You don't like this one:



But you like this one:




Could you please explain?

 

[Adair M]

Here is a screen print of my google search of "exposed root azalea bonsai":




There appear to be a lot of "failed experiments"!

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Every time I see one of those exposed root azaleas for sale, they are always crazy expensive!

 

[sorce]

they are always crazy expensive!

Easy way for me to keep from having a shitty bonsai!

I don't like any of these...the one I saw at the show here was dope.
I like Fredtrucks pine.

But these are gross....especially that one in the clay pot....it looks modeled after a dildo.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Sorce, that pine in the terra cotta pot was trained by growing it in a tube of corrugated landscape drainage pipe. Instead of a plastic soda bottle.

Personally, I'm not a fan. But many are.

Doing something like this is stretching the boundaries of bonsai art. Kinda like Andy Warhol's paintings of Campbell soup cans. Is it "shitty bonsai"? As Redwood says, they command a high price. So some must find them not so shitty. Some don't like the Sumo styles. I do. I personally don't care for tropical bonsai. I have seen some fabulous tropicals. But I have no desire to own one. Doesn't make them shitty though.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Personally, I'm not a fan. But many are.

I go back to nature. Does it look "natural"? Exposed root style to me should look like a tree that had the soil washed away over years, or grew on a mountainside in a pocket of grit that slowly blew away, etc. I could "make" exposed roots 6' long... but would it look natural? Some of the trees you posted fit that criteria (to me). Some do not.

Reminds me a little of the "root flare" arms race. Seems like someone created an amazing bonsai once with a great root flare at the soil. So if great root flare = great bonsai, then even greater root flare must = greater bonsai, right? In fact, if you make root flare 3' across... well that must be the greatest bonsai of all, correct? So now you see maple bonsai with surface roots that look like a frisbee, and people are paying a lot of money for them because... I don't know why. They look completely unnatural and in fact do not create any sort of peaceful natural bonsai vibe for me... but it seems there are always people out there who think of bonsai as a discrete sum of its parts, so the bigger/better/more outlandish the parts are the better the bonsai. I don't get it.

 

[A Random User]

For me, I do not understand why something has to be considered Natural in order for it to be a good bonsai... 99 percent of the trees most people like don't look anything natural. Bjorn was brought up earlier in the discussion, and to be frank... I have seen perhaps one, maybe two of his trees that kinda looked natural.

I always thought Bonsai was suppose to be an Artists Idea of what they think a tree should look like?

You do not have to do them in a 2 liter though, you can just lower the soil line little by little and remove roots that do not work with the design. It is actually quite easy to do, just take your time and do it a little at a time. This is my Azalea from the Bnut Comp that I exposed the roots on. I sold the tree, but if I had kept it, I would of kept lowering the soil line.



Thought I would post this one as well... Tropical and exposed roots... This one has been trained in tubes. Tropicals however, can do this with not having roots exposed by water... They can do it through aerial roots, as strangler figs often do.

 

[Adair M]

I go back to nature. Does it look "natural"? Exposed root style to me should look like a tree that had the soil washed away over years, or grew on a mountainside in a pocket of grit that slowly blew away, etc. I could "make" exposed roots 6' long... but would it look natural? Some of the trees you posted fit that criteria (to me). Some do not.

Reminds me a little of the "root flare" arms race. Seems like someone created an amazing bonsai once with a great root flare at the soil. So if great root flare = great bonsai, then even greater root flare must = greater bonsai, right? In fact, if you make root flare 3' across... well that must be the greatest bonsai of all, correct? So now you see maple bonsai with surface roots that look like a frisbee, and people are paying a lot of money for them because... I don't know why. They look completely unnatural and in fact do not create any sort of peaceful natural bonsai vibe for me... but it seems there are always people out there who think of bonsai as a discrete sum of its parts, so the bigger/better/more outlandish the parts are the better the bonsai. I don't get it.

I can see your point. I think the monster car crushing trucks are over the top beyond ridiculous. Some people think they are the coolest thing ever... Go figure.

Some women will get unnaturally large breast enlargements. Because they can, and some like them. Not everyone does.

The same can be said for some of the zelkova brooms in Japan. The ones that are ramified beyond belief. You know the ones? It's takes incredible skill to make one of those, keep all the branches alive, evenly balanced, and dense. Are they "natural"? I don't think so. I've never seen a tree that densely ramified in nature. But no question they're great bonsai.

 

[Adair M]

And, really, when have you ever seen a single trunk azalea that's not a bonsai? Frankly, I never have. They're bushes. Multiple trunks. Only when someone forces their will upon it will an azalea grow as a single trunk tree (or bush). So, the entire concept of a single trunk azalea is unnatural.

 

[Potawatomi13]

By the way, I do not subscribe to the "Naturalistic School" of bonsai as advocated by Walter Pall and others. I prefer more highly refined bonsai.

"Naturalistic" School of thought is likely the way Penjing and Bonsai began. So called "Perfectionist" School is understood to mean modern "refined" by all the rules and not looking like a natural tree. To Walter Pall and others including self the former is the way it began and should be so Bonsai shows and collections are not same old boring cookie cutter trees. Why go to see trees and see how well everybody can follow rules and make bunch of boring "perfect trees? Personally have to feel sorry for trees so abused to look perfect and not like real tree. Was it not American Master John Naka who told us Idea is not to make the tree look like Bonsai but to make Bonsai look like tree? New School developing in Europe and America. Personally believe this is more natural School of trees actually interesting to look at. Will not argue there are certain rules; bar branches, spoke branches, 4 trunks, belly branches, eye poking branches, reverse taper, etc need to be observed for desirability but "perfection" is defined by "school" masters and hundreds of years of trying to beat the other guys perfection. That striving for idealistic perfection has led to a quite un natural situation of trees that might as well be manufactured on assembly line.
Have to feel sorry that you can't seem to see trap you fall into. Offense not intended, only sorrow.