Please Research Your Decisions.

Big pharma has its problems for sure. Most are related to their belief in unbridled capitalism - they want to make all the money they can. If only they were more socialist in their approach......not making all the profits they can and doing public good. Would you like them better then? Still, with all their problems they can focus enormous resources on medical problems and development of the mRNA vaccines show how good they can be.......as long as they can make money off of it.
 
I think the industry can take a more balanced approach to contributing to society, while still making money. But it can't be overstated how amazing it is to have highly effective vaccines less than a year after the outbreak. I'm sure thousands and thousands of people around the world deserve credit here.

These vaccines are literally saving millions of lives, and will save many more in the coming year. It's saddening it's become such a political issue.
 
Influenza vaccines, also known as flu shots or flu jabs, are vaccines that protect against infection by influenza viruses.[2] New versions of the vaccines are developed twice a year, as the influenza virus rapidly changes.
Vaccination against influenza began in the 1930s, with large-scale availability in the United States beginning in 1945.
The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that vaccination against influenza reduces sickness, medical visits, hospitalizations, and deaths.[4][5] Immunized workers who do catch the flu return to work half a day sooner on average.[6] Vaccine effectiveness in those over 65 years old remains uncertain due to a lack of high-quality research.[7][8] Vaccinating children may protect those around them.[2]
The vaccines are generally safe; fever occurs in five to ten percent of children vaccinated, and temporary muscle pains or feelings of tiredness may occur. In certain years, the vaccine was linked to an increase in Guillain–Barré syndrome among older people at a rate of about one case per million doses.[2] Although most influenza vaccines are produced using egg proteins, they are still recommended as safe for people who have severe egg allergies,[16] as no increased risk of allergic reaction to the egg-based vaccines has been shown for people with egg allergies.[17] Vaccines produced using other technologies, notably recombinant vaccines and those based on cell culture rather than egg protein, started to become available from 2012 in the US

Criticism[edit]​

Tom Jefferson, who has led Cochrane Collaboration reviews of flu vaccines, has called clinical evidence concerning flu vaccines "rubbish" and has therefore declared them to be ineffective; he has called for placebo-controlled randomized clinical trials, which most in the field hold as unethical. His views on the efficacy of flu vaccines are rejected by medical institutions including the CDC and the National Institutes of Health, and by key figures in the field like Anthony Fauci.[61]

Michael Osterholm, who led the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy 2012 review on flu vaccines, recommended getting the vaccine but criticized its promotion, saying, "We have overpromoted and overhyped this vaccine ... it does not protect as promoted. It's all a sales job: it's all public relations."[62]

US vaccine effectiveness
by start year:[50][51][52]
200410%
200521%
200652%
200737%
200841%
200956%
201060%
201147%
201249%
201352%
201419%
201548%
201640%
201738%
201829%
201939%

These are copied and pasted from Wikipedia.
  • Influenza viruses belong to the family Orthomyxoviridae and have a single-stranded segmented RNA genome. The influenza viruses are classified into types A, B, and C on the basis of their core proteins. Type A viruses are further subdivided according to their envelope glycoproteins with haemagglutinin (HA) or neuraminidase (NA) activity.
  • Coronaviruses are single-stranded RNA viruses, about 120 nanometers in diameter. They are susceptible to mutation and recombination and are therefore highly diverse. There are about 40 different varieties (see Appendix 1) and they mainly infect human and non-human mammals and birds.
I am not a scientist, but I try to figure out the world by looking at data. From what I understand, both of these viruses are similar in that they are SS RNA, which allows them to mutate and recombine very quickly.
1. We have had influenza vaccines for almost 100 years, but Influenza still exists and still makes millions of people ill each year and kills many people every year. The vaccine has not eradicated influenza and does not prevent the spread of the virus, nor prevent it from recombining or mutating. Even if 100% of the world's population got the Covid Vaccine, similar to influenza, it likely will not stop coronaviruses from recombining or mutating in wild animals or asymptomatic individuals.

2. Effectiveness of the influenza vaccine varies even with advanced culture and distribution from only 10% in 2004 to 60% in 2010. And even studies of an almost 100 year vaccine can not prove the efficacy in adults over 65. They surely do not have the research then to prove yet the efficacy of the Covid Vaccine.

3. Even leading scientists, like Michael Osterholm, states that the influenza vaccine has been, "Overhyped and Overpromoted" Let the data in the future determine the effectiveness of this Covid Vaccine.

4. There are significant and severe reactions to the influenza vaccine to a small percentage of the population.

5. God forbid if there are severe complications not known or predicted by the scientific community now by utilizing MRNA vaccines. The part in Jurassic World where the scientist explains about Chaos theory is enough to scare a rational person.

I am not advocating not getting the vaccine. If it is important to you, please do. I have not been personally affected by Covid, but as the membership clerk in my church, I have recorded more deaths in 2020, than I did in the entire 6 years prior. This is sad, and we lost some beautiful people that I loved dearly.

But if I choose to decide not to get the vaccine, please do not call me selfish, or uncaring about society. You have not an idea how much love or hate I have in my heart towards you personally or society in general. I am a lover of Agency (Freedom of Choice), which is the greatest gift God has given to me. And I respect you to make your own choices, as much as I respect myself to choose for myself. My wife has gotten the vaccine, my 19 year old son has gotten the vaccine. My daughter will probably get the vaccine. But, based on so many unknowns, and the history of the influenza vaccine, and how they are both SS RNA viruses, at this time I will choose not to get this vaccine.

Now get back to your bonsai, pots, scrolls or whatever you do to bring nourishment to your soul.
 
On paper....

John has antibodies to covid 19 via infection.

Jane has antibodies to covid 19 via vaccine.

Both should be ok. Cuz science has taught us about that for like a century.

"2020 science is different though! You dont even know! Every man woman and child on the face of the earth needs the vaccine even if they had the infection. Only when compliance is literally 100% globally can we literally rid the world of an airborne respiratory virus. Any mutations could squarely be the fault of a SINGLE given work-day-person not getting teh vacCiNe and being a mutation incubator!! SHAME! SHAME!"

Listen to yourselves, ffs.
You're assuming that antibodies created in response to an infection and antibodies created in response to the vaccine are identical. They are not. Here's an analogy to explain:

You're the manager of a nursery raising pre-bonsai and you've hired your mother-in-law's sister's kid as a summer intern because your spouse asked you to. The kid's parents are missionaries and the kid has grown up traveling around the Sahara with his parents. This is the first time in his life he's ever visited a place with a temperate climate. The kid's never seen a maple tree before! You've decided to start him off learning to recognize some of the different trees grown in the nursery. The first day, you pick up a nearby tree, which happens to be a plain green Japanese Maple, put it up on the workbench, and tell the kid, "This is a maple tree. Study it. Try to identify features of this tree that will help you recognize this kind of tree in the future." You leave him alone to figure it out. The next day, you load up a cart full of various species of pre-bonsai: a Chinese elm, a Japanese black pine, a Trident maple, and 3 different Japanese Maples (a plain green one, an Arakawa, and a Sango Kaku). You point to each tree individually and ask the kid if it's a maple or not. He answers yes for the plain green Japanese Maple and says no for all of the other trees. You ask him how he decided that was the only tree of the bunch that was a maple. He tells you the criteria he decided on for the identifying features of a maple tree, based on the one and only example tree that you showed him during training. The identifying features he came up with were: green leaves with 7 lobes and serrated edges and smooth green bark. He didn't think the Trident was a maple because its leaves only have 3 lobes. He didn't think the Arakawa was a maple because the bark isn't smooth. He didn't think the Sango Kaku was a maple because its bark is red, not green.

The human body producing antibodies in response to COVID-19 infection is like the kid. Your body has never seen this particular coronavirus variant before and doesn't know what structural features of the virus are the most relevant ones for identifying the SARS-COV-2 virus particles that cause COVID-19. Your immune system samples some of the surface features of the virus particles that it has seen and creates antibodies that will recognize that specific combination of features on an unknown particle in the future. So, if you encounter the same exact strain of SARS-COV-2, your body is likely to be very effective at fighting off infection. If you encounter a different variant of SARS-COV-2 and it shares the same set of surface features that your antibodies were trained to recognize, your body will likely be very effective at fighting off that infection also. However, your antibodies may have been trained to recognize some features that are irrelevant for identification of SARS-COV-2 (like the kid's misconception that having smooth green bark was an essential characteristic of maples). If your body encounters one of these other variants of SARS-COV-2 that doesn't match up with all of the features your antibodies learned, they'll fail to recognize it and you don't have immunity to that variant.

The mRNA vaccines do not contain dead virus or attenuated live virus. They don't contain the whole virus particle at all. They are engineered to only present the most relevant feature of SARS-COV-2, the spike protein that is responsible for the ability of the virus to attach to a specific receptor on human cells. When antibodies are produced in response to exposure to the mRNA vaccine, those antibodies only learn the essential features that identify SARS-COV-2 particles without learning to recognize extraneous, irrelevant features. (To continue the nursery analogy, the mRNA vaccine is like giving the kid a dichotomous key for identifying maples.) The antibodies produced have a high efficacy in recognizing both the original strain of SAR-COV-2 and any other strain that includes the spike protein that binds to the ACE2 receptor. Virus mutations that don't change the spike protein would have little effect on the effectiveness of the antibodies. The antibodies would continue to work well on variants as long as their mutations do not change the spike protein.

Basically, antibodies produced from exposure to the vaccine are more effective because they're more robust at recognizing the virus even when mutations occur.
 
Influenza vaccines, also known as flu shots or flu jabs, are vaccines that protect against infection by influenza viruses.[2] New versions of the vaccines are developed twice a year, as the influenza virus rapidly changes.
Vaccination against influenza began in the 1930s, with large-scale availability in the United States beginning in 1945.
The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that vaccination against influenza reduces sickness, medical visits, hospitalizations, and deaths.[4][5] Immunized workers who do catch the flu return to work half a day sooner on average.[6] Vaccine effectiveness in those over 65 years old remains uncertain due to a lack of high-quality research.[7][8] Vaccinating children may protect those around them.[2]
The vaccines are generally safe; fever occurs in five to ten percent of children vaccinated, and temporary muscle pains or feelings of tiredness may occur. In certain years, the vaccine was linked to an increase in Guillain–Barré syndrome among older people at a rate of about one case per million doses.[2] Although most influenza vaccines are produced using egg proteins, they are still recommended as safe for people who have severe egg allergies,[16] as no increased risk of allergic reaction to the egg-based vaccines has been shown for people with egg allergies.[17] Vaccines produced using other technologies, notably recombinant vaccines and those based on cell culture rather than egg protein, started to become available from 2012 in the US

Criticism[edit]​

Tom Jefferson, who has led Cochrane Collaboration reviews of flu vaccines, has called clinical evidence concerning flu vaccines "rubbish" and has therefore declared them to be ineffective; he has called for placebo-controlled randomized clinical trials, which most in the field hold as unethical. His views on the efficacy of flu vaccines are rejected by medical institutions including the CDC and the National Institutes of Health, and by key figures in the field like Anthony Fauci.[61]

Michael Osterholm, who led the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy 2012 review on flu vaccines, recommended getting the vaccine but criticized its promotion, saying, "We have overpromoted and overhyped this vaccine ... it does not protect as promoted. It's all a sales job: it's all public relations."[62]

US vaccine effectiveness
by start year:[50][51][52]
200410%
200521%
200652%
200737%
200841%
200956%
201060%
201147%
201249%
201352%
201419%
201548%
201640%
201738%
201829%
201939%

These are copied and pasted from Wikipedia.
  • Influenza viruses belong to the family Orthomyxoviridae and have a single-stranded segmented RNA genome. The influenza viruses are classified into types A, B, and C on the basis of their core proteins. Type A viruses are further subdivided according to their envelope glycoproteins with haemagglutinin (HA) or neuraminidase (NA) activity.
  • Coronaviruses are single-stranded RNA viruses, about 120 nanometers in diameter. They are susceptible to mutation and recombination and are therefore highly diverse. There are about 40 different varieties (see Appendix 1) and they mainly infect human and non-human mammals and birds.
I am not a scientist, but I try to figure out the world by looking at data. From what I understand, both of these viruses are similar in that they are SS RNA, which allows them to mutate and recombine very quickly.
1. We have had influenza vaccines for almost 100 years, but Influenza still exists and still makes millions of people ill each year and kills many people every year. The vaccine has not eradicated influenza and does not prevent the spread of the virus, nor prevent it from recombining or mutating. Even if 100% of the world's population got the Covid Vaccine, similar to influenza, it likely will not stop coronaviruses from recombining or mutating in wild animals or asymptomatic individuals.

2. Effectiveness of the influenza vaccine varies even with advanced culture and distribution from only 10% in 2004 to 60% in 2010. And even studies of an almost 100 year vaccine can not prove the efficacy in adults over 65. They surely do not have the research then to prove yet the efficacy of the Covid Vaccine.

3. Even leading scientists, like Michael Osterholm, states that the influenza vaccine has been, "Overhyped and Overpromoted" Let the data in the future determine the effectiveness of this Covid Vaccine.

4. There are significant and severe reactions to the influenza vaccine to a small percentage of the population.

5. God forbid if there are severe complications not known or predicted by the scientific community now by utilizing MRNA vaccines. The part in Jurassic World where the scientist explains about Chaos theory is enough to scare a rational person.

I am not advocating not getting the vaccine. If it is important to you, please do. I have not been personally affected by Covid, but as the membership clerk in my church, I have recorded more deaths in 2020, than I did in the entire 6 years prior. This is sad, and we lostYou some beautiful people that I loved dearly.

But if I choose to decide not to get the vaccine, please do not call me selfish, or uncaring about society. You have not an idea how much love or hate I have in my heart towards you personally or society in general. I am a lover of Agency (Freedom of Choice), which is the greatest gift God has given to me. And I respect you to make your own choices, as much as I respect myself to choose for myself. My wife has gotten the vaccine, my 19 year old son has gotten the vaccine. My daughter will probably get the vaccine. But, based on so many unknowns, and the history of the influenza vaccine, and how they are both SS RNA viruses, at this time I will choose not to get this vaccine.

Now get back to your bonsai, pots, scrolls or whatever you do to bring nourishment to your soul.

You are comparing old vaccine technology with new mRNA vaccines. Flu vaccines will be improved by this new mRNA approach. Look at the current data for Covid 19 vaccines. They are not comparable with old flu vaccines. You're also conflating covid 19 with the flu virus. There are similarities, but they are not the same. If you choose not to vaccinate, then don't expect our medical teams to save your ass later. I'm tired of hearing stories about vaccine deniers who later end up getting lung transplants and other heroic therapies. If you realize it's best to give your daughter the vaccine, then it's in your best interests to get it too.
 
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You're assuming that antibodies created in response to an infection and antibodies created in response to the vaccine are identical. They are not. Here's an analogy to explain:

You're the manager of a nursery raising pre-bonsai and you've hired your mother-in-law's sister's kid as a summer intern because your spouse asked you to. The kid's parents are missionaries and the kid has grown up traveling around the Sahara with his parents. This is the first time in his life he's ever visited a place with a temperate climate. The kid's never seen a maple tree before! You've decided to start him off learning to recognize some of the different trees grown in the nursery. The first day, you pick up a nearby tree, which happens to be a plain green Japanese Maple, put it up on the workbench, and tell the kid, "This is a maple tree. Study it. Try to identify features of this tree that will help you recognize this kind of tree in the future." You leave him alone to figure it out. The next day, you load up a cart full of various species of pre-bonsai: a Chinese elm, a Japanese black pine, a Trident maple, and 3 different Japanese Maples (a plain green one, an Arakawa, and a Sango Kaku). You point to each tree individually and ask the kid if it's a maple or not. He answers yes for the plain green Japanese Maple and says no for all of the other trees. You ask him how he decided that was the only tree of the bunch that was a maple. He tells you the criteria he decided on for the identifying features of a maple tree, based on the one and only example tree that you showed him during training. The identifying features he came up with were: green leaves with 7 lobes and serrated edges and smooth green bark. He didn't think the Trident was a maple because its leaves only have 3 lobes. He didn't think the Arakawa was a maple because the bark isn't smooth. He didn't think the Sango Kaku was a maple because its bark is red, not green.

The human body producing antibodies in response to COVID-19 infection is like the kid. Your body has never seen this particular coronavirus variant before and doesn't know what structural features of the virus are the most relevant ones for identifying the SARS-COV-2 virus particles that cause COVID-19. Your immune system samples some of the surface features of the virus particles that it has seen and creates antibodies that will recognize that specific combination of features on an unknown particle in the future. So, if you encounter the same exact strain of SARS-COV-2, your body is likely to be very effective at fighting off infection. If you encounter a different variant of SARS-COV-2 and it shares the same set of surface features that your antibodies were trained to recognize, your body will likely be very effective at fighting off that infection also. However, your antibodies may have been trained to recognize some features that are irrelevant for identification of SARS-COV-2 (like the kid's misconception that having smooth green bark was an essential characteristic of maples). If your body encounters one of these other variants of SARS-COV-2 that doesn't match up with all of the features your antibodies learned, they'll fail to recognize it and you don't have immunity to that variant.

The mRNA vaccines do not contain dead virus or attenuated live virus. They don't contain the whole virus particle at all. They are engineered to only present the most relevant feature of SARS-COV-2, the spike protein that is responsible for the ability of the virus to attach to a specific receptor on human cells. When antibodies are produced in response to exposure to the mRNA vaccine, those antibodies only learn the essential features that identify SARS-COV-2 particles without learning to recognize extraneous, irrelevant features. (To continue the nursery analogy, the mRNA vaccine is like giving the kid a dichotomous key for identifying maples.) The antibodies produced have a high efficacy in recognizing both the original strain of SAR-COV-2 and any other strain that includes the spike protein that binds to the ACE2 receptor. Virus mutations that don't change the spike protein would have little effect on the effectiveness of the antibodies. The antibodies would continue to work well on variants as long as their mutations do not change the spike protein.

Basically, antibodies produced from exposure to the vaccine are more effective because they're more robust at recognizing the virus even when mutations occur.
That is a beautiful easy to understand explanation. Thank you.
 
With all due respect, this virus has a 0.3% chance of killing a young healthy person with no comorbidities.
You didn't cite a source for the 0.3% chance number. Maybe it's accurate or maybe not. For the sake of argument, I'm willing to assume it is correct under the conditions of a competently managed healthcare system in an affluent, developed nation while operating with excess capacity remaining. The number isn't fixed. It depends on the prevalence of infections in the local population, resources available to the hospital, etc. In a poor nation, the number will be higher both because prevalence of infection will be higher due to lack of vaccination and because of resource limitations (PPE, staffing levels, ventilators, oxygen supply, hospital beds, ICU beds, etc.) In a developed nation with a high prevalence of infection due to people refusing to get vaccinated, that number may go up drastically during an outbreak of a particularly infective variant that overloads healthcare system capacity (shortage of ventilators, ICU beds, overworked doctors & nurses, etc.). But that's just one part of the story.

The reality is that COVID-19 outcomes are not binary: it's not a coin flip between dying vs. full recovery (even if maybe that recovery takes a long time). This disease maims people too. It can permanently wreck a person's lungs. Its tendency to produce blood clots can cause a whole host of horrible things to happen to people: blindness, amputations, stroke, pulmonary embolus, etc. Getting the disease and hoping to survive it without lasting consequences is not a smart strategy. It's important to weigh the risks of vaccine side effects against the risks of getting COVID-19 and experiencing serious, potentially life-altering consequences. Death isn't the only negative outcome to worry about.
 
You are comparing old vaccine technology with new mRNA vaccines. Flu vaccines will be improved by this new mRNA approach. Look at the current data for Covid 19 vaccines. They are not comparable with old flu vaccines. You're also conflating covid 19 with the flu virus. There are similarities, but they are not the same. If you choose not to vaccinate, then don't expect our medical teams to save your ass later. I'm tired of hearing stories about vaccine deniers who later end up getting lung transplants and other heroic therapies. If you realize it's best to give your daughter the vaccine, then it's in your best interests to get it too.
I am not a vaccine denier. You have a lot of hate toward me. But your example of having to get a lung transplant is about as possible as if an anti-vaxxer is yelling at me saying I will get Guillian-Barre syndrome if I get the vaccine. About one in a million....stop being so extreme in your viewpoints. Even if 100% of the population get this vaccine, it will not stop this SS RNA virus from mutating or recombining in nature. I am more likely to die by getting in my car tomorrow and getting in an accident on my way to work. There is not enough salient data to determine efficacy of this vaccine...
 
I am not a vaccine denier. You have a lot of hate toward me. But your example of having to get a lung transplant is about as possible as if an anti-vaxxer is yelling at me saying I will get Guillian-Barre syndrome if I get the vaccine. About one in a million....stop being so extreme in your viewpoints. Even if 100% of the population get this vaccine, it will not stop this SS RNA virus from mutating or recombining in nature. I am more likely to die by getting in my car tomorrow and getting in an accident on my way to work. There is not enough salient data to determine efficacy of this vaccine...

No hate. You're just wrong. There's plenty of data.

Check here: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

235 million doses delivered in the US. 2 - 5 serious allergic reactions per million doses (0.0005%). 0.0018% deaths that might be related to vaccine.

Covid cases? death rates from 1 to 10% https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html
 
Last edited:
You didn't cite a source for the 0.3% chance number. Maybe it's accurate or maybe not. For the sake of argument, I'm willing to assume it is correct under the conditions of a competently managed healthcare system in an affluent, developed nation while operating with excess capacity remaining. The number isn't fixed. It depends on the prevalence of infections in the local population, resources available to the hospital, etc. In a poor nation, the number will be higher both because prevalence of infection will be higher due to lack of vaccination and because of resource limitations (PPE, staffing levels, ventilators, oxygen supply, hospital beds, ICU beds, etc.) In a developed nation with a high prevalence of infection due to people refusing to get vaccinated, that number may go up drastically during an outbreak of a particularly infective variant that overloads healthcare system capacity (shortage of ventilators, ICU beds, overworked doctors & nurses, etc.). But that's just one part of the story.

The reality is that COVID-19 outcomes are not binary: it's not a coin flip between dying vs. full recovery (even if maybe that recovery takes a long time). This disease maims people too. It can permanently wreck a person's lungs. Its tendency to produce blood clots can cause a whole host of horrible things to happen to people: blindness, amputations, stroke, pulmonary embolus, etc. Getting the disease and hoping to survive it without lasting consequences is not a smart strategy. It's important to weigh the risks of vaccine side effects against the risks of getting COVID-19 and experiencing serious, potentially life-altering consequences. Death isn't the only negative outcome to worry about.
I am not a vaccine denier. You have a lot of hate toward me. But your example of having to get a lung transplant is about as possible as if an anti-vaxxer is yelling at me saying I will get Guillian-Barre syndrome if I get the vaccine. About one in a million....stop being so extreme in your viewpoints. Even if 100% of the population get this vaccine, it will not stop this SS RNA virus from mutating or recombining in nature. I am more likely to die by getting in my car tomorrow and getting in an accident on my way to work. There is not enough salient data to determine efficacy of this vaccine...
And the 10 people who contracted it at my workplace, none have had long lasting health problems. No Blood Clots, no blindness, no amputations, no stroke, no pulmonary/respiratory problems....For a small minority, it seems to cause serious health problems....But I have not had enough people who have contracted it tell me otherwise. If I found my health condition to change such as getting Chrones or some other Auto Immune disease I would probably get the vaccination.
 
And the 10 people who contracted it at my workplace, none have had long lasting health problems. No Blood Clots, no blindness, no amputations, no stroke, no pulmonary/respiratory problems....For a small minority, it seems to cause serious health problems....But I have not had enough people who have contracted it tell me otherwise. If I found my health condition to change such as getting Chrones or some other Auto Immune disease I would probably get the vaccination.
Your anecdotal experience does not provide a rational basis for a risk-reward analysis. The people who contracted COVID at your workplace do not constitute an adequate sample size to draw meaningful conclusions from. That's why we have professionals whose job it is to compile statistics on health outcomes so we can make rational decisions about treatment and prevention. That work has been done and the clear result is that getting vaccinated is less risky than going without vaccination. But, hey, don't take my word for it. At your next checkup, ask your physician to advise you on whether or not you should get vaccinated. It's their job to know these things and to provide you with scientifically sound advice tailored to your health circumstances so you can make informed choices regarding your health.
 
Influenza vaccines, also known as flu shots or flu jabs, are vaccines that protect against infection by influenza viruses.[2] New versions of the vaccines are developed twice a year, as the influenza virus rapidly changes.
Vaccination against influenza began in the 1930s, with large-scale availability in the United States beginning in 1945.
The United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that vaccination against influenza reduces sickness, medical visits, hospitalizations, and deaths.[4][5] Immunized workers who do catch the flu return to work half a day sooner on average.[6] Vaccine effectiveness in those over 65 years old remains uncertain due to a lack of high-quality research.[7][8] Vaccinating children may protect those around them.[2]
The vaccines are generally safe; fever occurs in five to ten percent of children vaccinated, and temporary muscle pains or feelings of tiredness may occur. In certain years, the vaccine was linked to an increase in Guillain–Barré syndrome among older people at a rate of about one case per million doses.[2] Although most influenza vaccines are produced using egg proteins, they are still recommended as safe for people who have severe egg allergies,[16] as no increased risk of allergic reaction to the egg-based vaccines has been shown for people with egg allergies.[17] Vaccines produced using other technologies, notably recombinant vaccines and those based on cell culture rather than egg protein, started to become available from 2012 in the US

Criticism[edit]​

Tom Jefferson, who has led Cochrane Collaboration reviews of flu vaccines, has called clinical evidence concerning flu vaccines "rubbish" and has therefore declared them to be ineffective; he has called for placebo-controlled randomized clinical trials, which most in the field hold as unethical. His views on the efficacy of flu vaccines are rejected by medical institutions including the CDC and the National Institutes of Health, and by key figures in the field like Anthony Fauci.[61]

Michael Osterholm, who led the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy 2012 review on flu vaccines, recommended getting the vaccine but criticized its promotion, saying, "We have overpromoted and overhyped this vaccine ... it does not protect as promoted. It's all a sales job: it's all public relations."[62]

US vaccine effectiveness
by start year:[50][51][52]
200410%
200521%
200652%
200737%
200841%
200956%
201060%
201147%
201249%
201352%
201419%
201548%
201640%
201738%
201829%
201939%

These are copied and pasted from Wikipedia.
  • Influenza viruses belong to the family Orthomyxoviridae and have a single-stranded segmented RNA genome. The influenza viruses are classified into types A, B, and C on the basis of their core proteins. Type A viruses are further subdivided according to their envelope glycoproteins with haemagglutinin (HA) or neuraminidase (NA) activity.
  • Coronaviruses are single-stranded RNA viruses, about 120 nanometers in diameter. They are susceptible to mutation and recombination and are therefore highly diverse. There are about 40 different varieties (see Appendix 1) and they mainly infect human and non-human mammals and birds.
I am not a scientist, but I try to figure out the world by looking at data. From what I understand, both of these viruses are similar in that they are SS RNA, which allows them to mutate and recombine very quickly.
1. We have had influenza vaccines for almost 100 years, but Influenza still exists and still makes millions of people ill each year and kills many people every year. The vaccine has not eradicated influenza and does not prevent the spread of the virus, nor prevent it from recombining or mutating. Even if 100% of the world's population got the Covid Vaccine, similar to influenza, it likely will not stop coronaviruses from recombining or mutating in wild animals or asymptomatic individuals.

2. Effectiveness of the influenza vaccine varies even with advanced culture and distribution from only 10% in 2004 to 60% in 2010. And even studies of an almost 100 year vaccine can not prove the efficacy in adults over 65. They surely do not have the research then to prove yet the efficacy of the Covid Vaccine.

3. Even leading scientists, like Michael Osterholm, states that the influenza vaccine has been, "Overhyped and Overpromoted" Let the data in the future determine the effectiveness of this Covid Vaccine.

4. There are significant and severe reactions to the influenza vaccine to a small percentage of the population.

5. God forbid if there are severe complications not known or predicted by the scientific community now by utilizing MRNA vaccines. The part in Jurassic World where the scientist explains about Chaos theory is enough to scare a rational person.

I am not advocating not getting the vaccine. If it is important to you, please do. I have not been personally affected by Covid, but as the membership clerk in my church, I have recorded more deaths in 2020, than I did in the entire 6 years prior. This is sad, and we lost some beautiful people that I loved dearly.

But if I choose to decide not to get the vaccine, please do not call me selfish, or uncaring about society. You have not an idea how much love or hate I have in my heart towards you personally or society in general. I am a lover of Agency (Freedom of Choice), which is the greatest gift God has given to me. And I respect you to make your own choices, as much as I respect myself to choose for myself. My wife has gotten the vaccine, my 19 year old son has gotten the vaccine. My daughter will probably get the vaccine. But, based on so many unknowns, and the history of the influenza vaccine, and how they are both SS RNA viruses, at this time I will choose not to get this vaccine.

Now get back to your bonsai, pots, scrolls or whatever you do to bring nourishment to your soul.
To me...it's always been a personal choice. My one brother won't take it. That's him...he also doesn't look at me differently for having taken it. One should do what at the end of the day...sits well with them and judge others less.

My brother who just had open heart...did take the vaccine to be able to go back to work. [Covid has been in his place of work a few times.] His wife...didn't take it. Again.. personally choice. I love them all. And am not upset with their choices. But slightly relieved my brother recovering from open heart will be somewhat protected as he's back to work where covid has hit a large number of employees. He is upper management and head of his department so most often in his office. But must go to the production floor at times. [He designs fire trucks].
 
Pushing, advocating or "just mentioning", it's still a lie.
I would remind everyone, especially @BrianBay9 that we are now and will be for some time operating by the seat of our pants and the statistics are now not complete, yet. The death rates from the vaccines are much higher than typical, or normal, the total effects on people of getting Wuhan Virus and/or the vaccines long term are unknown, and one accepts these factors as acceptable risk, or not. Accusing someone of lying because they advocate for the other side of the question is at least disingenuous if not intentionally dishonest, which would not be out of character for @BrianBay9.
 
One of my biggest realizations lately is the inability of both sides to actually listen to the other perspective, and present arguments that aren't damning to the opposition.

We must remain level headed and peaceful.

Our Freedom works because we understand our hands wash each other, and it takes both sides to clap.

Clapping, joy, only comes from the CENTER.

Sorce
 
The delta variant is emerging and WHO says everyone needs to wear masks; Los Angeles mandates masks indoors in crowds; Fauci & CDC says existing vaccines work against delta and masks are unnecessary if vaccinated. Which authority is "lying"?
 
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