Pinching Vance Wood: the challenge

[Vance Wood]

I look forward to your video. Enjoy the show this weekend.

Thank You. I really am sorry my position has been cause for so much turmoil.

 

[wireme]

Those look like pollen cones that have formed. They are not likely the result of pinching, they are too even and consistent in shape.

Yes, you're right, male flowers. I was kidding, call it a virtual pinch, taking Brian's title literally.

Actually looking at the tree I can see a few spots that were pinched a while ago. Mostly I am letting it grow out runners to be cut back but it looks like a few spots I thought a pinch or two was a good idea.

Looking closely you can see the truncated ends you speak of where the central spike used to be, no browning.

 

[M. Frary]

You can see perfectly where the section was pulled off. Great picture man

 

[M. Frary]

Aargh! Look what you made me do man! Brown tips everywhere now!!!View attachment 79382

The first time I ever saw those on one of my junipers I freaked. I thought they were some kind of insect eggs.

 

[Vance Wood]

Good, bad or stupid, this has at least made people think about the issue and why they do what they do and why they don't.

 

[drew33998]

Maybe Vance's don't turn brown because of his aftercare? Does he put them in the shade? Mine down here turn brown every time I pinch.

 

[sorce]

That looks like a pretty happy, healthy tree. I don't see any brown tips. So unless my relatively untrained eyes are deceiving me, you seem to be doing something right.

Yeah. I'm bombing this on this thread!


Had to.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Wireme:

Yes, that is exactly the type of "pinch" that should be avoided. Maybe you will, maybe you won't get a brown tip on the stub you created.

But, if that tuft of foliage was too long, it should be cut back, farther back. Cut back to where the stem is brown. This would remove a lot more foliage than you did with your little pinch. But no growing tip would be cut short.

So, you shouldn't be pinching the outside perimeter, you should be cutting back about an inch under the edge of the canopy. That way, all visible tips are rounded and untouched.

 

[wireme]

Wireme:

Yes, that is exactly the type of "pinch" that should be avoided. Maybe you will, maybe you won't get a brown tip on the stub you created.

But, if that tuft of foliage was too long, it should be cut back, farther back. Cut back to where the stem is brown. This would remove a lot more foliage than you did with your little pinch. But no growing tip would be cut short.

So, you shouldn't be pinching the outside perimeter, you should be cutting back about an inch under the edge of the canopy. That way, all visible tips are rounded and untouched.

Hi Adair, the few spots I have pinched on that tree, the tuft is not too long, still too short and is growing out to position. So, not pinched to shorten, punched to increase division, ramification while the tuft is growing outwards. Only one single growing tip at a time, many remain for tree vigour.
Thoughts?

 

[wireme]

This is the tree in question, it has only been styled once, only repotted once since collection, a quite small yamadori rmj. It was collected as a bush of juvenile foliage dripping with cedar apple rust and juniper broom rust, the new growth is all scale and healthy now. It doesn't yet have pads to be maintained, it is more or less in grow mode between stylings pending further changes right now.

 

[Adair M]

Just leave it. Let it grow since you are wanting it to grow longer.

What creates ramification is letting runners form and extend a couple inches. Beyond the desired canopy. These build lots of strength. When you cut them off, THEN that stored strength is used by the tree to increase ramification.

Pinching the little growing tips like you did only weakens the tree. Letting runners form strengthens the tree.

I know, it SEEMS wrong... But, wow, does it work!

 

[wireme]

Here's an example small branch on this tree, you can see if I cut back to woody stem there are no active growing tips left. What I really need here are the new scale byds that will pop where the old juvi foliage meets the branch, it does seem to me that a pinch of the terminal bud does help initiate these. Again only one single active tip removed vs all of them removed if it were to be cut back to woody stem.
But, don't get the idea that I've been pinching the hell out of this tree, just a very few spots for observation, mostly its just growing, mostly growing flowers unfortunately.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Hi Adair, the few spots I have pinched on that tree, the tuft is not too long, still too short and is growing out to position. So, not pinched to shorten, punched to increase division, ramification while the tuft is growing outwards. Only one single growing tip at a time, many remain for tree vigour.
Thoughts?

You wrote, "only one single growing tip at a time, many remain for tree vigor." This is 100% correct.

You wrote it was "pinched to increase division, ramification while the tuft was still growing outwards." I circled the spot I presume you removed the tip. Show us where you expect the division and ramification to occur as a result of this removal.

 

[wireme]

OK, the division is already present I guess but I expect the remaining tips to grow out more equally now each one dividing more than they would if they were left behind.
Here's two twigs from this tree, they were side by side on a branch, one was tipped a couple weeks ago, one wasn't, looks like the pinched one is developing a bit rounder?

I'm really not arguing against the scissor prune method for the most part that's exactly what I am doing. It just seems like there should always be room for a bit of case by case alternative methodology.

In this case most of the exterior growth will be removed and replaced by the new growth that is coming in from twig critxhes in the interior, its that interior growth forming now that I'm thinking could benefit from the odd pinch during this stage.

 

[wireme]

This is the same tree after a couple years of excess branch removal but before the first styling, sorry poor pics, its all I've got
As you can see well grown out as you guys are recommending.

 

[Adair M]

OK, the division is already present I guess but I expect the remaining tips to grow out more equally now each one dividing more than they would if they were left behind.
Here's two twigs from this tree, they were side by side on a branch, one was tipped a couple weeks ago, one wasn't, looks like the pinched one is developing a bit rounder?

I'm really not arguing against the scissor prune method for the most part that's exactly what I am doing. It just seems like there should always be room for a bit of case by case alternative methodology.

In this case most of the exterior growth will be removed and replaced by the new growth that is coming in from twig critxhes in the interior, its that interior growth forming now that I'm thinking could benefit from the odd pinch during this stage.View attachment 79445

Of these two branches, the one on the left is just beginning to form a runner. This should be allowed to grow out to where it is twice or even three times as long, THEN cut back.

Production of those runners produces the hormone auxin. Auxin stimulates root growth, which makes your tree stronger. It also suppresses back budding. So, while the runner is growing, all the energy is directed towards making the runner longer. So, you won't see much ramification.

All that changes when you cut the runner off!!!

REMOVING the runner suddenly stops te auxin flow. Suddenly, the back buds that had been suppressed (prevented from growing) are allowed to grow. The branch is strong, the roots are strong, the tree responds to the removal of the runner by producing a flush of backbuds all along the stem that used to have the runner.

 

[coh]

Of these two branches, the one on the left is just beginning to form a runner. This should be allowed to grow out to where it is twice or even three times as long, THEN cut back.

Production of those runners produces the hormone auxin. Auxin stimulates root growth, which makes your tree stronger. It also suppresses back budding. So, while the runner is growing, all the energy is directed towards making the runner longer. So, you won't see much ramification.

All that changes when you cut the runner off!!!

REMOVING the runner suddenly stops te auxin flow. Suddenly, the back buds that had been suppressed (prevented from growing) are allowed to grow. The branch is strong, the roots are strong, the tree responds to the removal of the runner by producing a flush of backbuds all along the stem that used to have the runner.

OK...using that left picture as an example...say you let that runner go for a while. Where do you cut it back? Do you cut it back to about where the current longer side shoots are (just before where the runner really starts extending)? Or do you cut it further back, where the needle foliage ends or further? Does it depend on where it is in the tree and what you are trying to achieve?

 

[Adair M]

Yes, it depends on what you are trying to achieve.

You always have to leave some green.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

In the pic you show i see some runners. Those come off. You let the others alone and they will form runners eventually if they get light. The more you pinch them the more imbalance you will have. Your tree is far from ready to be pinched like Vance does on his nice refined tree.

 

[michaelj]

There was a time when every body in bonsai in America told me that you cannot make a bonsai out of a Mugo Pine. They were wrong.

Who are these people? All my bonsai books from the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s list mugo among the four or five best pinus species for bonsai. I am sure a lot of people don't like them, because most of them aren't as nice as the best examples from other species, and because it takes a very long time to make one look decent, but there have been good mugo pines being offered up as bonsai for as long as I can remember.