Peat moss and sand

[Nybonsai12]

I have used a small variety of bonsai soil mixes. Nothing crazy. I had the opportunity to speak with someone who is in my opinion an expert, and he told me he uses peat moss and coarse sand for all his trees, in equal parts. I was a bit surprised that it could be so simple. I have no reason to doubt him so this year when it comes time to mix soil, I will give it a go.

Have any of you heard of this? Or ever been recommended this concoction?

 

[markyscott]

I read somewhere that picking the best soil mix is like picking the best pizza. Lots of people have strong opinions about what to put in it, but the basic ingredients are more or less the same. In my experience, if you go too heavy on organics, the soil stays too wet for too long and there is poor aeration. These conditions can lead to bad stuff growing in the soil and suboptimal root growth. I have pretty good luck without using any organics, but the trade off is that I have to water and fertilize much more frequently. If you don't or can't, what I do might not work for you.

So give it a try, you will see very quickly if that mix works for your climate, growing conditions, watering habits, etc...

Scott

 

[John Ruger]

I think the guy who told you means chopped sphagnum, not peat moss.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I think the guy who told you means chopped sphagnum, not peat moss.

Nope def peat. Watched him mix it

 

[markyscott]

Straight peat moss is very fine grained, in addition to being organic. This will be a very heavy mix with poor drainage. I emphasize what I said previously about damp conditions in the pot. Consider chopped sphagnum as a substitute.

Scott

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I'd be afraid of the soil holding too much water. How does he know when it's time to water again? The center of the rootball could still be soaked.

 

[Martin Sweeney]

If I am not mistaken, the North Carolina Arboretum uses sphagnum peat moss and permatil, not sifted, for it's bonsai collection. The story, as I remember it, goes something like this. The curator of the collection, being part of a University, had access to soil scientists and soil testing. He sent some sort of traditional bonsai soil sample to the University's soil testing lab and they asked why anyone would try to grow anything in "this crap". So he experimented on a variety of mixes, did more testing and came up with the above. I am sure other criteria were involved, like cost and ease of prep. Suffice it to say that the trees are very healthy and the mix is controversial and not widely used.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Nybonsai12]

I'd be afraid of the soil holding too much water. How does he know when it's time to water again? The center of the rootball could still be soaked.

That is my only concern, but by using the coarse sand in equal parts with the peat it should promote drainage. We will see what happens and I will report back with my findings when the time comes.

 

[Poink88]

That is my only concern, but by using the coarse sand in equal parts with the peat it should promote drainage. We will see what happens and I will report back with my findings when the time comes.

No, the peat is the problem being too fine. Using coarser sand will hardly help at all since peat will fill all the voids anyway.

That said, it can or will work just not optimal and be careful with your watering. Your chances of root rot is higher also.

I use chopped sphagnum myself.

Good luck!

 

[Nybonsai12]

If I am not mistaken, the North Carolina Arboretum uses sphagnum peat moss and permatil, not sifted, for it's bonsai collection. The story, as I remember it, goes something like this. The curator of the collection, being part of a University, had access to soil scientists and soil testing. He sent some sort of traditional bonsai soil sample to the University's soil testing lab and they asked why anyone would try to grow anything in "this crap". So he experimented on a variety of mixes, did more testing and came up with the above. I am sure other criteria were involved, like cost and ease of prep. Suffice it to say that the trees are very healthy and the mix is controversial and not widely used.

Regards,
Martin

Funny u say that because if I remember correctly the tip was picked up from the caretaker at the national arboretum many years ago.

 

[John Ruger]

If I am not mistaken, the North Carolina Arboretum uses sphagnum peat moss and permatil, not sifted, for it's bonsai collection. The story, as I remember it, goes something like this. The curator of the collection, being part of a University, had access to soil scientists and soil testing. He sent some sort of traditional bonsai soil sample to the University's soil testing lab and they asked why anyone would try to grow anything in "this crap". So he experimented on a variety of mixes, did more testing and came up with the above. I am sure other criteria were involved, like cost and ease of prep. Suffice it to say that the trees are very healthy and the mix is controversial and not widely used.

Regards,
Martin

What was it that made it controversial?

 

[Martin Sweeney]

John,

It was controversial due to the deviation form the accepted norm. Also, in the local Charlotte, NC area club, it varied dramatically from what a few intensive students had learned from their teacher.

The mix has produced good results in the health of the trees. If I understand the situation properly, the NC Arboretum is able to accommodate different watering schedules for different trees.

Regards,
Martin

 

[coh]

I say, give it a try, preferably with plants you don't care too much about, and see how it works for you...and of course, report back. I'm all for experimenting. Maybe acquire two nearly identical plants (seedlings, perhaps), plant one in your peat-mix and the other in a more standard bonsai soil, and see how they do. That's not a very large sample size, but better than nothing.

People have been growing houseplants and outdoor container plants in similar mixes forever...just have to get the watering figured out.

Chris

 

[Austin]

I think the guy who told you means chopped sphagnum, not peat moss.

I have read a few times to mix sphagnum is an almost guraunteed mixture for mold. Seems however some of us on the forum use this succesfully.

I noticed with 50\50 peat and chicken grit Both sifted and the grit having been washed, it become a stable environment so long as you let it dry out between watering completely or as close to as possible but I would definitely sift out the fines from the peat.

it all turns to mud at the bottom if you don't get teh fines out and wash off teh chicken grit, the grit makes more mud than the peat however if you neglect to sift and wash.

now this was used for house plants over a year, only had trees in it for three months.

Edit : I also put a layer of larger rock 1/4 - 1/2 inch sized for, about half inch to an inch deep on the bottom of my pots to allow the peat to dry from the top as well as the bottom. wich prevents it from being water logged, Learning how to water peat is very tricky all in all however.

another thing I found is the fines from sand and the peat make a good covering for seeds and seedling as it does hold water for only about 24 hours if it is only an inch deep, I have started a few trees from seed doing this as well as house plants and it had a nice effect on the root growth of young plants as it is light weight and does not hinder the plant.

I have little to no experience but for seedlings this seems to work, willow trees love it aswell.

 

[bonhe]

Due to the tap water pH (alkaline) and hot dry weather in my area, I have been using a lot of peat moss in my soil mix.
My favorite mix is inorganic part (coarse sand, turface or oil-dri/ pumice or lava cinder= 1/1): ornanic part (peat moss / fir ground = 1/1) with ratio 1:1 or 2:1 depending on what type of tree.
All of my trees is so far so good. One of the secrets to have Ume growing so well in my area is peat moss!!!
Bonhe

 

[Austin]

As an after thought, I proposed a soil similar to this in a thread I started a week ago and I was told I was going to kill my plants...I think it was because I am new and I didn't reference anyone currently using the mixture other than myself.

 

[jk_lewis]

If I am not mistaken, the North Carolina Arboretum uses sphagnum peat moss and permatil, not sifted, for it's bonsai collection. The story, as I remember it, goes something like this. The curator of the collection, being part of a University, had access to soil scientists and soil testing. He sent some sort of traditional bonsai soil sample to the University's soil testing lab and they asked why anyone would try to grow anything in "this crap". So he experimented on a variety of mixes, did more testing and came up with the above. I am sure other criteria were involved, like cost and ease of prep. Suffice it to say that the trees are very healthy and the mix is controversial and not widely used.

You might want to doublecheck this. I'm a member of the Blue Ridge Bonsai Society in Asheville and I'm up there a lot and have listened to Arthur Joura talk bonsai on many occasions and this is the first time I've heard anything about that mix.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

As an after thought, I proposed a soil similar to this in a thread I started a week ago and I was told I was going to kill my plants...I think it was because I am new and I didn't reference anyone currently using the mixture other than myself.

Newness definitely plays a role. I don't think it'd be wise for a beginner to try something this radical.

 

[Martin Sweeney]

Jim,

Arthur was in Charlotte in August and used the mix on a juniper he repotted. As I was assisting him, I was lucky enough to breath in lots of the dust from the soil. He clearly explained it as the soil I described.

Arthur has changed his soil a few times over the years, so maybe he has changed back or maybe since you last checked in he has changed to this. I do not know. I do know that Arthur almost inevitably discusses soil in his yearly visit to the Charlotte club. I have detailed the conversations as accurately as I can.

Regards,
Martin

 

[Beng]

Sphagnum moss and Peat moss are two entirely different things in the US. I loosely chop up Long Fiber Sphagnum Moss and use it in my mix, it is not a powder though. Last year I bought my Sphagnum here it was really good quality. http://repotme.com/orchid-potting-media/New-Zealand-Sphagnum.html

http://gardeningoncloud9.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sphagnum-peat-moss-01.jpg On the left Sphagnum moss and on the right ground peat moss.

I don't know anyone who uses the kind of Peat moss you'll find at home depot and lowes in their soil mix. Growing in it would be the same as growing in dirt. It's good for seedlings just like sands good for seedlings. But as a medium to develop a highly ramified root system it will not work nearly as well as a course bonsai mix, or even a course bark in a mix. After all when mixed with water all you are left with is mud.

I'd like to know of one well known bonsai artist that uses the peat moss sold here in the USA. Walter Pall uses Rough peat in europe, but as he says on his blog the peat moss sold in the USA is not suitable for bonsai. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2009/04/rough-peat.html It'll run out the bottom of the pot as it's super finely ground. If you mix it with perlite, or lava you'll end up with a pot of perlite or lava after a few years. It is not rough or sharp. Those are two important qualities in growing ramified root tips, and as such it gives the roots little to nothing to bind onto.

If you ever have used akadama, lava, or course pumice you'll notice when repotting your trees that the roots have literally grown through the older akadama, they've also bound onto the lava and pumice particles. This is very important as this creates ramified fine root development.

I think Michael Hagedorns little icon says a lot about desired root growth "As Above/So Below." A great tree will rarely be grown on a tap root alone in a pot. Only nature can create such a miricle. http://crataegus.com/2012/11/28/as-above-so-below/tumblr_m6v8tj1adr1rnwgypo1_1280/

Colin Lewis has a great article on soils.

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils1.html
http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html
http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils3.html