Oval or rectangle? Cypress Forest

[G3ON5IA_GUY]

That is actually the general idea for my forest. Thanks for the picture! It's kinda funny because at the moment my tree set up is very similar to this one except his are a lot nicer. I have one large flat top (not with a base like that thought, I wish!) and two slightly smaller trees. Then I have a group of mixed filler trees. I may need to get a few even smaller trees to help the perspective though. Overall my forest will be smaller than this one though. Wish I could find a good collecting spot around here for some larger cypress!

 

[Vance Wood]

Distance and perspective can be difficult to pull off in a group planting... I find it interesting that the feedback on the group I posted was only from the tree counters...not one direct mention of perspective or distance....although the original poster did mention the "drastic size difference"


This planting was never intended as a typical group (a number of trees planted together to represent a forest, or forest's edge) it was an experiment in perspective. Thus, I never applied the "rules" for creating forest plantings...in my mind they did not apply.

I am attempting to create an image that might reflect the way Cypress trees look when in a canoe and you look out across an open lake spotted with a few ancient flat-top Cypress. I really like how the trees and the plane of the water surface interact. In my mind the largest tree is by itself...a little further in the distance is the group of 2 and much further away is the smallest tree. I even considered trying to plant this group so that it would be viewed length-wise or from the side of the container...thinking I could achieve more physical distance and thus more imagined distance and perspective between the trees and may still do that in the future.

Admittedly there is much more work to be done before I am pleased with the composition (its only been together 6 months and the trees collected a year before that). Stick around and take a gander in 5 years lets see if it has improved

Al you are exactly right about the pot...obtaining an appropriate container is going to be a challenge and expensive.

G3ON5IA_GUY, the appropriate sized container is very important but it depends much on your vision for the planting you create. I hope you will share when you are ready. Here is a pic of Vaughan Banting with a BC forest planting that he and his crew created in the early 90's that I suspect may be similar to what you are envisioning.

did they use an even number of trees???

With all due respects in view of the opinion voiced on the tree count it seemed to me that mentioning perspective and the size of pot would be considered piling on and being overly picky.

Contrary to what some say, a forest planting or group planting is not the easiest thing to do effectively in bonsai. It is not simply a matter of throwing a bunch of different sized trees into a pot and there you go. More than anything else I can think of as to making a bonsai all of the elements in a forest or group have to work together to create an illusion. The problem is determining what illusion you wish to create.

 

[jk_lewis]

If Vaughn were still around and redoing that grove today, I suspect he'd choose a pot that was only half as deep.

 

[johng]

With all due respects in view of the opinion voiced on the tree count it seemed to me that mentioning perspective and the size of pot would be considered piling on and being overly picky.

I am curious Mr. Wood, what exactly did I say in my response that made you think your question bothered or that I took offense to it in any way? No one else appeared to have any concern with my response? I am beginning to question whether your comments are sincere or whether you are just trolling???

I would appreciate it if you would pm your response to me so that we do not continue to interrupt this thread.

John

 

[Vance Wood]

I am curious Mr. Wood, what exactly did I say in my response that made you think your question bothered or that I took offense to it in any way? No one else appeared to have any concern with my response? I am beginning to question whether your comments are sincere or whether you are just trolling???

I would appreciate it if you would pm your response to me so that we do not continue to interrupt this thread.

John

Your post in #8 seemed a bit sarcastic calling the 4 tree thing my rules, which they are not. The entire post had the feel of being offended and that you did not care what the traditional configuration was. Any thing else you may have thought I meant, even so far as accusing me of trolling, is just a misunderstanding.

 

[johng]

Your post in #8 seemed a bit sarcastic calling the 4 tree thing my rules, which they are not. The entire post had the feel of being offended and that you did not care what the traditional configuration was. Any thing else you may have thought I meant, even so far as accusing me of trolling, is just a misunderstanding.

Well then for the record I will REPEAT what I said in post 11...that was not my intent. Is that enough, or are you going to continue to harp on this and decide for me what I say in my posts?

Thanks for replying in a PM...I am sure the rest of groups appreciates it as well.... and yes, just so you are clear that was sarcasm!

 

[Vance Wood]

Well then for the record I will REPEAT what I said in post 11...that was not my intent. Is that enough, or are you going to continue to harp on this and decide for me what I say in my posts?

Thanks for replying in a PM...I am sure the rest of groups appreciates it as well.... and yes, just so you are clear that was sarcasm!

Yes I guess so. That's where the fire started, though it has never been my intent to fan the flames all I think I have done is offer opinion on the item at hand and tried to avoid saying anything that would offend you as to the quality of the grouping. I could have started out my remarks by stating the obvious, but chose to tread lightly trying to understand the level of your thinking and your perception of and experience with the process involved. If somehow what I have said has offended you for that I am sorry, that was not my intent.

 

[johng]

Yes I guess so. That's where the fire started, though it has never been my intent to fan the flames all I think I have done is offer opinion on the item at hand and tried to avoid saying anything that would offend you as to the quality of the grouping. I could have started out my remarks by stating the obvious, but chose to tread lightly trying to understand the level of your thinking and your perception of and experience with the process involved. If somehow what I have said has offended you for that I am sorry, that was not my intent.

I have tried to be nice throughout this exchange but your continued insistence is forcing my hand.

You forget one important fact Vance...I NEVER ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION OR QUESTIONS now did I?

I posted a picture specifically in relation to what the thread was about..Cypress groups in an oval or rectangular container. Had I wanted your opinion I would have started my own thread and would have asked for it as I always do when I am looking for opinions. It was you who started this and got this thread off track...I don't care how innocent you think it was it had nothing to do with the thread.

I attempted, obviously in vane, to answer your question but all I got back was attitude about tweaking my nose...Stupidly, I further went on to reveal exactly what MY reasoning were behind this experimental planting and you were too thick to even read it but your quoted it and continued to post trying to tell me about forest plantings...

What makes you think your ARTISTIC opinion is even worth reading Vance? Are you so old you have forgotten all you have written about your own shortcomings when it comes to this subject? ...especially when it is unsolicited???

go make some boxes Vance, it seems to be the only thing you excel at...

 

[DaveV]

Johng: I think you are being way to sensitive. I have read all of the threads and I don't feel Vance has any bad intent. When one communicates over the internet it is difficult to interpret a persons intent. If someone says you took their intention worg, I think one has to accept what they say. Try not to get too bent out of shape.

Sincerely

DaveV.

 

[rockm]

I didn't see where Vance was being disrespectful at all...

 

[milehigh_7]

Just do what I do (what I now do I should say), if a thread starts to get my blood boiling, I just try really hard to stop reading it. Wish I would have done that a while ago but hey live and learn right?

 

[Vance Wood]

Just do what I do (what I now do I should say), if a thread starts to get my blood boiling, I just try really hard to stop reading it. Wish I would have done that a while ago but hey live and learn right?

You are right, but I wonder if you could pass the Rooster Cogburn test: "No one likes being called low down and foul smelling.".

However I refuse to call names and impugn someone's reputation or level of skill. I will say this. I have never been one who has spouted the so called rules as graven in stone but having said that I have always followed the Bumble Bee principle. According to all of the rules of aerodynamics the Bumble Bee is not supposed to be able to fly. Trouble is, no one ever told the Bumble Bee; so it flys any way. The moral of this story is this: If you break the rules what you do must work. Those who have an eye for bonsai will know exactly what I am talking about in this instance.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

You forget one important fact Vance...I NEVER ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION OR QUESTIONS now did I?

Well technically the title of this thread is a question. LOL! Just trying to jump in -- sticks in hand to proke you with. Please don't hate me

 

[mat]

Well technically the title of this thread is a question. LOL! Just trying to jump in -- sticks in hand to proke you with. Please don't hate me

but not a question posed by johng

 

[Vance Wood]

but not a question posed by johng

But-----Johng inserted his example in an answer/reply to someone else (G3onsai) asking a question looking for an answer from expertise and experience. I simple asked why he went the direction he went with his grouping considering the traditional prohibitions involved. So; putting up an opinion or an example in answer to a technical question from someone who does not know the answer (a beginner?/novice?) leaves the poster open to questions if said example is outside the norm.

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

but not a question posed by johng

Touché...my mind seems to've left me with no attention to detail today. My apologies

Even still, I don't think what transpired in the post warranted such insults. Not only is it uncivilized and a bit childish, but it's also quite rude because the originator's post has been hijacked. For shame!

 

[Vance Wood]

Touché...my mind seems to've left me with no attention to detail today. My apologies

Even still, I don't think what transpired in the post warranted such insults. Not only is it uncivilized and a bit childish, but it's also quite rude because the originator's post has been hijacked. For shame!

I thought and I still do that my posts on the subject were pertinent to the subject understanding that G3onsai thought the question was interesting; the question I asked in post #6 or there about.

 

[rockm]

"I was originally leaning towards a rectangle for this particular idea but now I'm having mixed ideas. So I'm not sure if I should use an oval or a rectangle? Give me your expertise and opinions."


Personally, I usually lean towards ovals for forest, but also use rectangles The issue with forests, especially forests with less than ten trees is the focus is on the individual trunks of the trees. When you get above that the focus tends to be on the mass of trunks. In small numbered plantings, the character of the individual trunks is emphasized, soooo, the straighter the trunks, the more linear a pot can be used. This is a rule of thumb for me. In any case, it boils down to what looks good.

As for odd or even number of trees in a forest, the lower the number the more likely the brain is to make associations between trunks. That is, it will tend to link trees together. Even numbered plantings can make things look awkward--as in making imaginary squares, rectangles or more rigid geometric shapes out of the arrangement. In other words, an odd numbered planting tends to look more natural and less orchestrated in composition. This is true in most kinds of arrangements of just about anything. Odd numbers "fool" the eye more readily than even. Of course, once you get above eight or so trees, this goes out the window, as the eye can't really keep track of the numbers.

FWIW, the "odd number" idea turns up in all manner of display and art:
http://missgraciousliving.southernaccents.com/mgl/2009/05/an-odd-day.html
http://www.digital-photography-school.com/the-odd-rule-of-composition
http://designideas.macscapacity.com/tag/odd-numbers-in-design/

 

[G3ON5IA_GUY]

Thanks rockm! My forest will be more focused on numbers and not so much on the trunks of the individual trees. But I will have one specific tree formed into the flat top style and the trunk on this one has more movement in it than a typical formal style cypress (nothing crazy, just not pencil straight). The tree has a slight movement to the left, given these features i believe the proper pot for this forest will be an oval.

Thanks for your input among all the chaos of this thread. In the beginning (1st page) it all seemed like it was going to be a good constructive discussion on the composition of the pictured forest. I didn't think it would blow up like it did. But it's ok, I got the help I needed, haha

 

[slowgrow]

Cant wait to see the pics of the forest. I want to see the flat-top style in there somewhere