Opposing Thoughts and Practices on Bonsai for Beginners
- Thread starter Godschick
- Start date
Well to paraphrase Public Enemy “F#%k the Bonsai Police”.
berzerkules
Shohin
That was a long time ago from my youth, and you are of course correct.
What I vaguely recall was somehow buying a Public Enemy CD from the discount rack after it was banned here in Australia. My recollection was it was banned because it related to police. Maybe Fight the Power?
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Better to fight the power than the tree.
@BobbyLane bringing up classics!
If you haven't learned something from Nigel, or Herons, or ChasX, you haven't learned enough.
I think it's important to remember that anyone is going to assume a tree, your tree, has been cared for as theirs have, which can lead to great advice being timed poorly, thereby rendering said good advice confusing. See the path paved with good intentions and where it leads.
All advice is good, You must be responsible for your own timing. Patience.
All advice must be applied only in rhythm with the tree.
The rhythm of the tree that so few of us are at one with because we cut them so much, shelter them so confusingly, fertilize them to our schedule, they rarely display their rhythm.
As soon as we "input", it creates a scenario where there must be a question, "what did that do?", that opens up the scenario to the question, "could that have caused this?".
Then for every other "input" the question must be asked, "how does input A relate to input B?".
Down this path, where we end up with about 3-5 inputs to question, we find ourselves asking ridiculous and unanswerable questions because we've operated so far out of the tree's rhythm.
So any Newb question about horticulture woes, can be appropriately answered with, "you are working outside the tree's rhythm."
The question they must ask themselves then is, "how many layers outside the rhythm am I working?"
As advice givers, we should probe to find this out rather than give well meaning advice that may sour. This advice also adds another layer outside of rhythm. Do less. Do less.
I believe there is one right way to do everything, I believe we are directly connected to the Earth and have every capability to become one with it and see that way.
To eat, we should be encouraged to plant a seed, allow the plant to remove Carbon from the atmosphere using the energy of the sun, then eat the plant. A safe small energy rhythm.
Instead we drive to work, which endangers life and adds carbon, then drive to the grocery store, where more carbon was added and more life threatened trucking food, wrapped in turtle killing plastic and tree wasting cardboard, which was also processed with great energy, drive home, and throw out a bunch of packaging which needs to be picked up via the use of more energy.
Just to eat the same fucking plant.
Save the Climate though!
Liars, Demons.
There shouldn't be rules beyond the 10 Commandments, we were given the gift to know everything else.
Any other rules are just there to enslave another human, we're ok with it because it's so many layers away from the Truth.
To change the path of the ship, we must first admit the sail is too tattered.
Butter up the Rutter.
Sorce
@BobbyLane bringing up classics!
If you haven't learned something from Nigel, or Herons, or ChasX, you haven't learned enough.
I think it's important to remember that anyone is going to assume a tree, your tree, has been cared for as theirs have, which can lead to great advice being timed poorly, thereby rendering said good advice confusing. See the path paved with good intentions and where it leads.
All advice is good, You must be responsible for your own timing. Patience.
All advice must be applied only in rhythm with the tree.
The rhythm of the tree that so few of us are at one with because we cut them so much, shelter them so confusingly, fertilize them to our schedule, they rarely display their rhythm.
As soon as we "input", it creates a scenario where there must be a question, "what did that do?", that opens up the scenario to the question, "could that have caused this?".
Then for every other "input" the question must be asked, "how does input A relate to input B?".
Down this path, where we end up with about 3-5 inputs to question, we find ourselves asking ridiculous and unanswerable questions because we've operated so far out of the tree's rhythm.
So any Newb question about horticulture woes, can be appropriately answered with, "you are working outside the tree's rhythm."
The question they must ask themselves then is, "how many layers outside the rhythm am I working?"
As advice givers, we should probe to find this out rather than give well meaning advice that may sour. This advice also adds another layer outside of rhythm. Do less. Do less.
I believe there is one right way to do everything, I believe we are directly connected to the Earth and have every capability to become one with it and see that way.
To eat, we should be encouraged to plant a seed, allow the plant to remove Carbon from the atmosphere using the energy of the sun, then eat the plant. A safe small energy rhythm.
Instead we drive to work, which endangers life and adds carbon, then drive to the grocery store, where more carbon was added and more life threatened trucking food, wrapped in turtle killing plastic and tree wasting cardboard, which was also processed with great energy, drive home, and throw out a bunch of packaging which needs to be picked up via the use of more energy.
Just to eat the same fucking plant.
Save the Climate though!
Liars, Demons.
There shouldn't be rules beyond the 10 Commandments, we were given the gift to know everything else.
Any other rules are just there to enslave another human, we're ok with it because it's so many layers away from the Truth.
To change the path of the ship, we must first admit the sail is too tattered.
Butter up the Rutter.
Sorce
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
LOL - I agree with your points! And I'll even add that there are times when you HAVE to experiment. Even the masters are still learning. You should be learning with every tree, and every procedure. Even when I am planting up a tray of cuttings - 72 at a time - I am still learning. My point simply is - start from a place of as much knowledge and experience as possible.
Can you imagine if you said "I'm going to start my journey as a dentist... by experimenting with peoples' teeth". Even if you had enough volunteers, you could live your entire life and never get as competent as someone one year out of dental school.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
Absolutely.
I'm just making the point that you can't become a decent dentist just by reading and watching others do it.
Eventually you gotta get bit, and that will teach A WHOLE LOT about teeth.
Wasn’t that the plot of Marathon Man? Dustin Hoffman becomes the patient of an experimental dentist and it doesn’t go well.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
the "Dentist" in the movie was a very experienced doctor, modeled on the warped, brutal Dr. Joseph Mengele. Both knew EXACTLY what they were doing, based on long experience. They knew exactly how to inflict maximum pain and perform monstrous things on their subjects.
It's a sordid icky analogy for bonsai, but-- "understand the basics, become proficient at them and you can inflict maximum effect on your trees."
Last edited:
I guess this is honestly part of my dilemma… Even though I’m new at this, I have the privilege of having made some good friends who are advanced and have been doing it for many years and have 200+ trees. I have definitely bent and even broken a lot of noob rules but only because I’ve had side by side guidance and help, not just in the processes but in the recovery and growth of the trees themselves. I have learned how to watch a tree after working on it to be sure it is still healthy. I even have a friend‘s Bonsai Garden that I can leave the trees that I’ve worked on for a few weeks to recover since my set up is not quite as nurturing, especially here in central California. Every single thing I have done with any tree has been overseen and guided. I’ve done things such as Airlayers, thread grafting and many other things along side someone more advanced. It’s been super awesome! But then when I talk to other more advanced practitioners they kind of get upset with me because I’ve done these things already and maybe outside of what they feel is acceptable. I want to be respectful but I also want to continue to learn and grow 
Hit the nail on the head. Newbs need bonsai 101. And while "it depends" is the slogan for bonsai, these countless variables can be omitted for the most part from the newbie lessons. They tend to confuse the newb more than they help. The additional information should be layered over a more definitive base of knowledge.
But missed this one by a long shot. Need I remind that there are almost 8 billion people in the world? Unless we are ready to get rid of about 7.5 billion of them, this kind of farming is a non-starter. It's the genetic engineering, pesticides, mass production and global supply lines (with all the petrol that consumes) that keeps us fed.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I've run into this allot over the years, though not in bonsai. (Haven't been doing it long enough, and I haven't found anyone in my area to teach me 1 on 1.)But then when I talk to other more advanced practitioners they kind of get upset with me because I’ve done these things already and maybe outside of what they feel is acceptable. I want to be respectful but I also want to continue to learn and grow
Many people out there have an idea of what a thing is supposed to look like, and if what you're doing doesn't fit their perceived paradigm they're genuinely confused, and confusion can be upsetting.
Others just don't understand that you're already under the tutelage of someone experienced and they think you're just screwing around.
Others still are just competitive and won't accept anything that isn't their idea. "Oh, that's cool! Where'd you get that idea?" "From your competition." "Oh, well we don't do that here."
You can't please everyone, so don't try. Anyone in the above 3 categories are the disrespectful ones if they give you hell for learning something not their style from someone not them.
You're doing it right so long as you're not cutting out any avenues of learning that might be at your disposal. One of the 1st and most important life lessons I learned as a kid is that the people who are concerned you won't fit in with them are the people you probably don't want to fit in with.
I agree, but would add another category and submit that many people here fit into this category. Imagine you wanted to take up the hobby of building cars. You have no experience in this field and are not an engineer. So you go out and get yourself the equivalent of "how to build cars for dummies" and you're off to the races. You have a ton of questions. First off, good luck getting anyone with decades of car engineering and design experience to field your first grader questions. Forget about answering you in a tone that doesn't hurt your feelings. You're never getting any attention from these people. I've found the bonsai folks to be a unique lot. Here, the experts will actual field the questions. They'll even suffer insults from us newbs and come back for more.
Second, there will be start up costs and expenses throughout the process. No one is forcing you to purchase a hydraulic lift, but this will greatly assist you in your pursuits. Fiberglass is expensive, as is the equipment needed to safely work with this. This list will go on and on. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, you can always build yourself a go-kart on the cheap with far less equipment and experience, but building something like a Ferrari is an entirely different animal. Bonsai is similar.
Third, not all ideas are worth pursuing. Standing on the shoulders of giants so that we can see further is the best way to go. Continuing with my analogy above, imagine I caught up with Mr. Ferrari and decided to share my idea of wheels on the top of the car. Hey, I'm experimenting and how else can I learn? I'm not experimenting, I'm being a dumb ass. Literally trying to reinvent the wheel when there are decades of experience already invested into this. "Hey, Mr. Ferrari, I'd like to attach the catalytic converter to the AC system. Ever try that?" When you get the response not to do that because you're car won't run, you're creativity is not being stifled. You are simply being given tried and true advice.
Also, some things actually do look a specific way. Yes, there may be variation, but the thing is what it is. A tree isn't a car. A broom style isn't a literati. If we are going for a specific style, but developing it in a way not likely to produce that style, or not likely to keep the tree alive, we are doing the wrong thing. This isn't a matter of opinion. It doesn't "depend". Thankfully, we have this additional category of people here who don't have rigid paradigms, truly believe we are trying to learn, and are not competing against us (let's be clear - we aren't their competition in any event). They are genuinely trying to share their knowledge and guide others.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I was speaking specifically to what makes a poor teacher. I work in education, so I get hear about what I'm doing wrong all the time, and therefore declare myself an expert on crappy teaching technique.
You are right, though, in terms of being a crappy learner. Some people are more concerned with trying to be perceived as something new and impressive than they are with what they're actually doing. Others allow themselves to be too sensitive to criticism and either won't ask for help, or won't accept what they're told. Hell, there are 100 different ways to be a bad learner, but being a bad teacher is pretty simple.
Some here learned classically, through a master; some never bother styling nursery material; and some still get a thrill from tree seeds.
Do you think learning bonsai has some to do with implicit vs explicit learning, and that some lean one way more than another?
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I work with high schoolers with an average reading level lower than my 11 year old's. I learn something from them every day.
@Godschick , if you're concerned or confused or frustrated that it seems like some very skilled bonsai practitioners here disagree with what or how you're learning the craft, that's your desire to be liked impacting your desire to learn.
Are you learning? Are you content with what you're learning and how?
If so, then you should be happy about it, and if you're happy about it then you should be laughing about a bunch of old men being so malcontent about someone they've never met.
Most of the things I learn from those punk teenagers each day are about how much I've learned, and how much I still have to learn.
@Godschick , if you're concerned or confused or frustrated that it seems like some very skilled bonsai practitioners here disagree with what or how you're learning the craft, that's your desire to be liked impacting your desire to learn.
Are you learning? Are you content with what you're learning and how?
If so, then you should be happy about it, and if you're happy about it then you should be laughing about a bunch of old men being so malcontent about someone they've never met.
Most of the things I learn from those punk teenagers each day are about how much I've learned, and how much I still have to learn.
Good advice Shady.
I am not a teacher but do quite a bit of industry mentoring. Why? Because I also learn just as much in the process as what I hope to impart.
True words! I am also a teacher. I learn from my students all the time and enjoy the connections immensely. I think it’s less about the like factor than it is the respect factor. I absolutely love what I’m learning and feel very privileged to actually be surrounded by so many that are extremely knowledgeable. I guess their malcontent towards each other will sort itself out. Bonsai is my place of respite and peace and truly a great adventure that I want to give honor to, as well as all those before me. Thanks for the encouraging words
Yes I’m sure how one has learned bonsai has a huge impact on their beliefs and teaching practices. I guess all belief systems are molded around the way we are taught or shown how to do things or what to believe. I think those are huge influences, but as we grow and evolve we can define our own set of perspectives, branching out from those things we have been taught. I personally find learning from multiple perspectives and a diversity of practices is exciting and is helping me to see all angles of bonsai. I just don’t think some find the diversity as exciting. I can totally respect that too.
LAS
Yamadori
What would you sat are good water attributes? I can adjust ph and dechlorinate. But, what we would ideal?Some are fortunate to have good water…… for quite many years I lived at a place with horrible pH water and by the end of the season my trees would look like garbage, but I still managed to enjoy the hobby I finally took a hydroponic course and it’s like night and day.
So let’s not forget the basics of horticulture before all the design attributes
Similar threads
