Opposing Thoughts and Practices on Bonsai for Beginners

[MSU JBoots]

@Godschick get the free mirai membership and watch these videos. That’s how I started. Then I kept the membership for 5 more months as I wanted more knowledge. I have a notebook full of notes I’ve taken from videos to go back an reference. Since I can’t currently join the local club and don’t have time for in person instruction other than the one workshop I did this was great start. Outside of that I experiment on nursery stock and frequent this forum. I follow a handful of members with great trees and try my best to pick up pearls of wisdom from them.

 

[Paradox]

@Godschick
Keep in mind that learning bonsai is my no means fast.
There is a ton of information, so many different species of tree, different timing for different things.
There are some similarities but there are is a lot of species specific information.
And it can take a year or years to see results.

The bottom line is it takes time and you will pay dues to the learning curve in dead trees.
There are no real ways to make it faster except a 6 year apprenticeship in Japan, if you have the ability.
Learn what you can where you can, work on your trees, ask questions if you arent sure, youll get there.

 

[BobbyLane]

Once youve understood the horticultural part, learnt the difference between good material and poor material and have a grasp on styling your bonsai. the time it takes to make a decent bonsai can be drastically reduced by starting with good material or just better and better material. even if you didnt know how to wire, a presentable deciduous bonsai can be developed with clip n grow/directional pruning.

 

[ShadyStump]

Not so sure the one insult per year rule is actually a thing outside of pines and the like.

I am a big fan of the KISS approach - keep it simple stupid. There's a lot to learn, but I believe that the fundamentals can be explained relatively quickly and then implemented. And when I say implemented, I say this in the least arrogant way possible. I aspire to develop trees like the ones I've seen on this site, but have no misconceptions about my skill level. Tried and true technique and experimentation in implementation should produce finished trees. Will Mach5 be hounding me to buy my trees? Probably not. That's because the level of development needed to produce a tree like that will require a more nuanced approach. Newbs should be taught to develop newb trees, not butcher everything they touch because they are being advised to

I think there can be a one-stop for newbs to get very basic information without all the nuance and disagreement. For example, I don't think explaining soil has to be the equivalent of astrophysics, requiring folks to experiment with endless soil combinations and get a degree in soil mechanics. I could swear I listened to a video of Walter Pall saying he uses whatever he has lying around. Of course, he understands the fundamentals of soil and therefore can do this effectively (assuming that's what he does). The answer to the question of "I'm a newb and need soil, what should I get?" should have an answer. Maybe something like, "X is a safe bet, but here are all of the details". I think this is confusing, but not nearly as confusing as it's made out to be.

I tried to do this with a thread on choosing material and planned on posting other similar threads. Was a little hesitant as I'm a newb myself and the last thing I want to do is give the wrong info. I have one on soil that I may just post and open it up for inevitable criticism.

Another example - knowing when to repot shouldn't be rocket science either. Of course, circumstances will arise where expert opinions are needed. But otherwise, one should have a firm enough grasp of plant biology and the tried and true practices to answer the simple question themselves.

This is one I'd like to tackle some day; a beginners' guide of basic bonsai science. Just a short little booklet of the basic concepts of soil mechanics, growth hormone movement, grow lights, and how to read fertilizer labels. A pocket reference for noobs sort of thing.

 

[BobbyLane]

This is one I'd like to tackle some day; a beginners' guide of basic bonsai science. Just a short little booklet of the basic concepts of soil mechanics, growth hormone movement, grow lights, and how to read fertilizer labels. A pocket reference for noobs sort of thing.

Modern Bonsai Practice: 501 Principles of Good Bonsai Horticulture https://amzn.eu/d/27B4iDR

I thought this was useful, but as with most books ive ever purchased i tend to just flick through and speed skim through every page. for me personally ive found videos and images to be more valuable.

Its a good book for a reader.

 

[ShadyStump]

Modern Bonsai Practice: 501 Principles of Good Bonsai Horticulture https://amzn.eu/d/27B4iDR

I thought this was useful, but as with most books ive ever purchased i tend to just flick through and speed skim through every page. for me personally ive found videos and images to be more valuable.

Its a good book for a reader.

I'll have to look into it. If Walter Pall is in on it I suspect authoritative enough.

What I was really thinking was quite literally a pocket sized, or at least toolbox sized, quick reference manual for study on the go. After the very noob level it'd probably be more of a cross-reference notebook.
Seems like a fun project in my head at least, but I'm years off from the knowledge to write it myself.

 

[JesusFreak]

Just watch Nigel and you should be good to go

 

[Cajunrider]

Just watch Nigel and you should be good to go

I believe this should go to the Snark thread ha ha.

 

[ShadyStump]

Just watch Nigel and you should be good to go

I'm not a fan personally, but I do have to defend him. He's a true hobbyist, not trying to make world class trees or anything, just having fun with bonsai.
Keep that in mind, and he's not so bad.

 

[BobbyLane]

I'm not a fan personally, but I do have to defend him. He's a true hobbyist, not trying to make world class trees or anything, just having fun with bonsai.
Keep that in mind, and he's not so bad.

Ive watched him too over the years, I liked his Larch forest/mossing videos. I think when youre serious, you make the time to absorb everything going, especially any free content. Even used to watch Chas x back in the day, so many I cant remember the names.
Nigel seems to be the brunt of many jokes. His Larch forests tho are pretty cool, with realistic ground cover and detail. I wonder how many have even come close to replicating that type of work

 

[Cajunrider]

I'm not a fan personally, but I do have to defend him. He's a true hobbyist, not trying to make world class trees or anything, just having fun with bonsai.
Keep that in mind, and he's not so bad.

I actually like the fellow. However I bare rooted a few trees exactly when and how he did his and my trees died - So did his it turned out.

PS: I even made soil the way he made for those trees. Still I like him.

 

[Lorax7]

I actually like the fellow. However I bare rooted a few trees exactly when and how he did his and my tree died - So did his it turned out.

He's in Canada, so I'm guessing the relatively cool summers where he is give trees a longer time window to recover before their roots' ability to compensate for high transpiration rates is tested by peak summer heat.
Edit: Oops, didn't see the last part. Guess it didn't work there either.

 

[JesusFreak]

He’s great for bonsai. Very entertaining. I’ve watched all his stuff

 

[Nickagainst1]

Was is Dan Robinson or Nick Lentz or @sorce that said "fuck rules"?

 

[Lorax7]

Not so sure the one insult per year rule is actually a thing outside of pines and the like.

It isn't really a thing for advanced bonsai folks, period. They have the experience to observe the tree, know its health status, and proceed (or not) with working the tree accordingly. However, this is a thread about advice for beginners, so some rules that err on the side of safety for the tree are worthwhile and the 1 insult per year rule is not a bad idea even for deciduous trees when they're in the hands of a beginner.

 

[PaulH]

If a tree needs wire, wire it.

This.... I see so many beginners (and people who have been beginners for years) loading a tree with wire that serves no purpose. Only apply wire where it will improve the tree.

 

[PaulH]

he's not so bad

What is fun about poor technique and mediocre results?

 

[ShadyStump]

What is fun about poor technique and mediocre results?

The same thing that keeps my 6yo drawing and coloring, and my 4yo painting. The same thing that keeps karaoke bars in business, and most people BBQing. How about your local recreation district's summer softball teams?
What could possibly be fun about ANYTHING at all?

 

[berzerkules]

What is fun about poor technique and mediocre results?

I don't watch Nigel anymore but I have in the past and I think that people that make beginner friendly bonsai content on yt are doing a good thing. They can make bonsai seem accessible to anyone and get them into the hobby when they otherwise might have never taken that first step.

I'm not going to lie, I started a couple winters ago because a Peter Chan video popped up out of nowhere on my recommended videos on yt. I think it was was bonsai for free beech trees or something like that. He got a bunch of hedge trees, started sawing them in half, pulling them apart and potting them up. I had no idea people were digging up trees and making bonsai out of them. If this happy 80 year old Chinese guy with a Indian accent in a Hawaiian shirt can manhandle some half dead trees and make it look easy I sure as hell can do it too. I've been interested for years but never knew where to start, one video changed that.

I live in Alaska and there is literally no bonsai going on up here but I have endless trees to dig if I just go out and explore nature. I also had a long winter to research how to dig up trees and turn them into bonsai. I watched and read everything I could. It didn't take long to find other people that were making better trees than Peter and Nigel and I quickly found other sources of information. They provide a starting point for beginners and their content is definitely not aimed at people with decades of experience but they are getting a lot of people into the hobby. I started digging trees the next spring as soon as the ground wasn't frozen solid.

My results are going to be mediocre because I have a 4 month growing season up here and my techniques are poor because I'm still new and have no guidance. Moving to a more hospitable environment that is conducive to growing bonsai and getting training is going to be a hard sell to the missus. Until then I'll take what I can get and enjoy what I have.

Hope I didn't come off as confrontational like I was singling you out here. Just trying to say that everyone is at different stages of their bonsai endeavors and life so anyone that encourages people to at least take that first step and get a tree are at least trying to do something positive.

 

[bbk]

The same thing that keeps my 6yo drawing and coloring, and my 4yo painting. The same thing that keeps karaoke bars in business, and most people BBQing. How about your local recreation district's summer softball teams?
What could possibly be fun about ANYTHING at all?

Nailed it