New World

[irene_b]

Irene, you need to expand your horizons a bit, check out IBC, AoB, and especially bonsai-fachforum, where the artists communicate with the artists. The question why is often asked as much as the question how. The inexperienced ask how, the experienced ask why.

For clarification, No one here challenged your "vision" of this tree, only the techniques used to achieve it.


Have a good day,


Will

I explore several of those sites regularly. Thank You Much!
May your day be blessed as well
Irene

 

[cantstopsmilin]

wow, this thread really turned into a heathed debate, on the bright side, i got to see different perspectives and after reading through all of it i honestly am still unsure about how i feel about this forest... i would agree that the composition to me lacks depth, well in a sense... i feel it would be better with different heights and size trees, and make it more interesting, on the other hand, i see the way the same age trees could be used in an artistic way, meaning that this is all kind of based on personal preference. As for sticking with the rules, they can be very good guidelines and are their because of that and because they set some , well i already said it, guildelines to follow. anyways, interesting topic, thanks for the discussion, i got to see many different points of view

 

[Vance Wood]

wow, this thread really turned into a heathed debate, on the bright side, i got to see different perspectives and after reading through all of it i honestly am still unsure about how i feel about this forest... i would agree that the composition to me lacks depth, well in a sense... i feel it would be better with different heights and size trees, and make it more interesting, on the other hand, i see the way the same age trees could be used in an artistic way, meaning that this is all kind of based on personal preference. As for sticking with the rules, they can be very good guidelines and are their because of that and because they set some , well i already said it, guildelines to follow. anyways, interesting topic, thanks for the discussion, i got to see many different points of view

It could be said that in bonsai everything is based on personal preference. This seems to be the modern day catch phrase in an on-going rebellion against all that has preceded. However more than any other form in Bonsai the Forest is dependant on one of the major rules of art; that of perspective and the illusion of depth. There are some rules in bonsai that are almost like the rules in mathematics, if broken untoward things happen. It's OK to break rules but in doing so it is necessary that the end results are at least equal to, or exceed, the results gained using the tried and true.

 

[Taylor Brown]

It's OK to break rules but in doing so it is necessary that the end results are at least equal to, or exceed, the results gained using the tried and true.

Hi Mr. Vance
I know why there is a need for rules or as Dad puts it guidelines. I have a question. If your bonsai tree is equal to whats normal then isn't your bonsai just another tree in a bunch of other normal trees. I don't see anything exciting about that its boring. If one day when i am older and do a bonsai that goes past normal and is something new and good who will judge me. Will they see that it is good bonsai. will they say because its different that I didn't follow the rules because they didn't understand. I have heard people talk about Mr. Walters natural style. They said it wasn't bonsai because it didn't look like a japanese bonsai. I think that was unfair to Mr. Walter because he was trying to make a bonsai look like a real tree. I hope that I don't have that problem

 

[Anonymous User]

Hi Taylor,

I don't think Mr. Pall's bonsai look exactly like a real trees, instead I believe his bonsai amplifies all that a real tree is, more so even than an actual tree in nature.....they are more natural than their counterparts in nature. They look more real sometimes to us than a real tree does, if you understand what I am trying to say.

How can this be so? Mr. Pall has a very good eye as to what we perceive as "treeness" what we think of when we think of a tree....this is often quite different than what we actually see, each of us has preconceived notions of what a tree is and what it should look like, many attributes are the same and if we think hard and look carefully, what we think a tree should look like and what a tree actually looks like, are different in subtle ways.....

Mr. Pall takes what we think a tree looks like in nature and presents the best of these perceptions, so when we see his bonsai, we immediately think of a natural tree, hence the term naturalistic. His bonsai represents what we think of when we think of tree, without being no where near duplicates of actual trees that grow wild....in fact, due to the differences in size, number of branches, taper, leave to height ratios, etc, we could never duplicate a tree in nature at all....all we can do is present an idealized vision of a tree in nature, Walter does this so well that his bonsai really look like actual trees that could be found in nature, untouched by human hands...he does this so well that many people who do not know better think he does no work on them at all, that they are in fact natural trees....this attests to his great talent when one considers that actually not a single branch is untouched by him.

His creations are a welcome change from those that look contrived, planned, man-made, almost artificial.

Better? That is open for debate, but definitely artistically valid.

Will

 

[Taylor Brown]

Hi Mr.Will thank you for the reply. I know that Mr. Walters trees don't look like real trees. What I meant to say was that they look more like real trees than japanese trees. Japanese trees look pretty but all look the same if you look at to many of them. I guess Mr. Walter takes the best parts of a tree and makes an image from them giving them like you said a treeness feel. I understand what the naturalistic look is my Dad made me read every article Mr. Walter wrote on it. I also have been studing his pictures at art of bonsai. This still does not answer my question who will judge me or any body else when they exceed the rules. when I read the articles by Mr. Walter I feel he was judged by people that would not open there mind to his bonsai style. Did they have enough nowledge to say his bonsai was anew style type or not. I hope this will change when I get older.

 

[irene_b]

Hi Mr.Will thank you for the reply. I know that Mr. Walters trees don't look like real trees. What I meant to say was that they look more like real trees than japanese trees. Japanese trees look pretty but all look the same if you look at to many of them. I guess Mr. Walter takes the best parts of a tree and makes an image from them giving them like you said a treeness feel. I understand what the naturalistic look is my Dad made me read every article Mr. Walter wrote on it. I also have been studing his pictures at art of bonsai. This still does not answer my question who will judge me or any body else when they exceed the rules. when I read the articles by Mr. Walter I feel he was judged by people that would not open there mind to his bonsai style. Did they have enough nowledge to say his bonsai was anew style type or not. I hope this will change when I get older.

Perhaps you will remove what and how trees are judged by Taylor....
I do hope the change is done soon....
Irene

 

[Chris Johnston]

Ms. Taylor,
Hopefully no one will judge you, they will judge your trees' artistic and technical merit. The two are vastly different things.

Many people cannot seem to separate the two, and therefore hard feelings can follow. Or some folks are pretty thin-skinned about any critique of their trees, and hard feelings can ensue.

I can assure you that when you creat trees that move beyond the rules, your trees will come up for criticism, either positive or negative. That is a good thing, it's how we learn and grow. For example, check out my thread on my collected Colorado blue spruce. I styled that tree as a semi-cascade, that was the plan I had for it, and I made it happen. I didn't realize the cascading branch would look so thin, however.


Of course I posted the tree as soon as I was finished, and got some interesting critique. The one thing I heard more than anything was to get rid of the cascading branch, tilt the tree up, and make it tighter. Hans Van Meer, a wonderful internet friend, made what I think is the best virtual representation I have ever seen, because it is possible, and in fact just a simple next step in the evolution of this tree. I think he sent it to me in chat and I saved it to my laptop. Unfortunately, I don't have that computer with me right now. Your dad was the first with similar good advice, just consider his, tipped up some, with the crown closer to the trunk, and the back branch gone. I will post Hans' submission as soon as I can.

My point is that if we are open, we can learn from all these things. Here's my plan with the tree: repotting in spring with good root work and changing the angle, then the following year, I will restyle in the new direction. At that point the tree should be close to display-ready.

Don't worry, there will always be those who will make suggestions because they love the art and think you have a good thing going, or good possibilities. They will find you soon enough, I think.

Edit: Here are the two photos again:

 

[cantstopsmilin]

once again an interesting thread and interesting replies, i see what taylor says, you want your tree to stand out from the rest, you need to be different if you want to excel, it's like art, picasso and monet and tons of other artists are famous for their art and style, which, at the time, was rejected, but they did it anyways, and they changed the mindset. Thankyou Vance for your reply, i understand completely, you can break rules, but the rule are there for your benefit, they're there for a reason, and you should be careful when you break them, and make sure that whatever you do is better or turns out better than what you would have done with the rules, also, being different does cause people to critique your work, and you can take that critique and use it to benefit yourself and others, or to hurt yourself and others, the critique might not be positive, but see what other people think, and work with it till you achieve your goal and a beautiful tree.

 

[Vance Wood]

once again an interesting thread and interesting replies, i see what taylor says, you want your tree to stand out from the rest, you need to be different if you want to excel, it's like art, picasso and monet and tons of other artists are famous for their art and style, which, at the time, was rejected, but they did it anyways, and they changed the mindset. Thankyou Vance for your reply, i understand completely, you can break rules, but the rule are there for your benefit, they're there for a reason, and you should be careful when you break them, and make sure that whatever you do is better or turns out better than what you would have done with the rules, also, being different does cause people to critique your work, and you can take that critique and use it to benefit yourself and others, or to hurt yourself and others, the critique might not be positive, but see what other people think, and work with it till you achieve your goal and a beautiful tree.

You seem to have a grasp of it. The "Rules" are there because they have always worked. You have to be careful about breaking rules or you run the risk of breaking your own neck or breaking your own heart. In short you don't break the rules of gravity by jumping off a very tall building.

 

[bonsai barry]

In short you don't break the rules of gravity by jumping off a very tall building.

Tried this once. Worked for an instant. There was a downside however.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Tried this once. Worked for an instant. There was a downside however.

It's not the fall that kills 'em. It's the sudden stop at the end.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

when I read the articles by Mr. Walter I feel he was judged by people that would not open there mind to his bonsai style. Did they have enough nowledge to say his bonsai was anew style type or not. I hope this will change when I get older.

If it makes you feel any better I can tell you the naturalistic style of bonsai is not a new style. Penjing is more natural in apperance many times than Japanese Bonsai. And I know for certain of one man who has been creating thousands of Natural looking bonsai for over 50 years (and still doing it almost every day). Ask your father who that man is... he will know who I mean because your father knows me well enough.

I know that early on in his endeavor even Walter created very Japanese 1-2-3 trees. It requires a moment of realization about what trees really look like. Not many people have the opportunity to see truly great Ancient trees. The standard idea of what a tree looks like.... and the actuality of what most trees in America look like is that they all appear very juvenile, because they are. It is really and truly only once you have seen great old Ancient trees that you can begin to see the magic these trees create.

As my teacher once told a boy who said "That doesn't look like a tree" ... "Then you haven't seen very many trees"

See and examine as many ancient trees as you can. Even if only in photographs. You will see that they are far more interesting (as you seem to already understand) than what is considered normal in bonsai.

 

[Asus101]

In short you don't break the rules of gravity by jumping off a very tall building.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqrCH32xZdc

Although its not a tall building, it is about a thousand feet above a mountain top?

 

[Vance Wood]

That's nutts, you break the rules and you pay the price unless you have an out.