New World

[irene_b]

Shall we all get back to the topic please!
More pics.
Please note that there are younger trees in this planting.
As well as no top dressing....just the trees and a few rawks.
Irene

 

[irene_b]

Now for some pics of Collected Native trees.
I do not know the age of these trees, but based on other trees that were collected from this same area (On the caprock) the ages go from 40 to 200.
Small does not always mean young trees here, but have more to do with nature of this micro climate and the species of these trees.
Irene

 

[rlist]

Glad to see you are collecting and happy with local native material - though the second one does appear to have the "S" shaped trunk you so despise...

 

[irene_b]

And more collected trees.
Irene

 

[irene_b]

Glad to see you are collecting and happy with local native material - though the second one does appear to have the "S" shaped trunk you so despise...

LOL Behave son!
And it is deadwood and very straight from there on!
Mom

 

[Anonymous User]

BillS,

Good, honest, straight to the point post, thank you.

I collected more than a few perfect trees last March. Perfect height, perfect nebari, perfect roots!
Created by Nature who did a damm fine job without mankind touching it!

Irene,

Which of these collected trees that you have posted are the "perfect" trees you talked about? I don't personally see one that works as a bonsai as is...?




Will

 

[No it's not...]

I collected more than a few perfect trees last March. Perfect height, perfect nebari, perfect roots!

Irene

There ya go Will, can't really argue about the height, the nebaris can't really be seen on any of them and neither can the roots. Besides, perfect depends on what she'll do with them. So, can we move on now?

 

[irene_b]

It seems some people are trying desperately to make this discussion one about politics, personal feelings, imagined tones, other forums, or anything else but the subject. This is the problem with many forums today, the few who are incapable, unable, or unwilling to simply discuss a topic and stay on subject.

Please show us these "perfect" trees you collected Irene, post some pictures, you certainly are the first to do so and this would be a historic event. have you entered these in any shows, contests, or exhibits yet? Man, what I would give to have a perfect tree that nature created and that needs no pruning, wiring, or styling at all.

Seriously, what is counter-productive is suggesting that a bonsai (forest or otherwise) can be created without human intervention, that a feasible plan of action would be just to allow the branches to grow and set wherever they want to. This is not what people learning bonsai should take to heart, following such thoughts will only lead to overgrown, sloppy plants in pots.

Nature creates some beautiful trees, this is a given. Many even serve as inspiration for bonsai, bonsai can suggest natural trees, in fact it should, but it can't be natural trees, it just won't work for many reasons, height to trunk ratio, number of branches, to name a couple.

Walter Pall creates the most natural looking bonsai in the world, so natural that some have accused him of doing nothing to the tree, just letting them grow Willy nilly as you suggest....but nothing could be farther from the truth. Every single branch is wired on his trees, sometimes many time, each branch is carefully selected and groomed, and very visual aspect of the tree is created by him. He creates the illusion of a tree untouched by human hands, the reality is that there is not one single bonsai of any value that is actually untouched.

Simply letting a tree grow wild in a pot will not produce what you seek to imitate in nature, mainly because of scale and proportion, but also because of all the billions of trees out there, only a few of them inspire us in bonsai, the rest do not fit the artistic qualifications needed due to many reasons, such as the natural bend of a branch due to the weight of the foliage, the environment, snow, etc...a bonsai will never have the weight or be exposed to the environment to duplicate this, hence intervention is needed. I could go on and on, but the point is clear, without human intervention, all you will have is a mess.

As to the Japanese rules, I misunderstood you and thought you were defending your words by saying they aligned with such, when in fact you were just saying to hell with them. Swaying from the rules is acceptable, but only if it works, breaking such does not make anyone an automatic artist, nor does it guarantee success artistically. However, giving up selective pruning and purposeful pruning is quite different from bending a rule or two, it is actually going against the basic principles of design and leaving any outcome to pure random chance, a good outcome is highly unlikely and if obtained, can never be duplicated.

In my experience Irene, most of the "S" shaped imports seem to come from China, not Japan. I find little use for these as well.

When you post a tree or an idea on a public forum, you put it up for critique, positive and negative, if a piece is for only your own joy, why post it?

I personally do not see a lot in your forest yet, the height of the trees and the thickness of the trunks are too close in size, giving a lack of depth and dimension. The rocks look like they were pulled from a pile and just sat on the soil instead of looking like they belong there. I do like the idea presented and think it has promise. With some thinner trees (no need to go larger) added in the rear and maybe the sides, better rock placement, and some selective pruning, this could look really good without waiting for years or for random chance of branch placement.



Will

I will answer most of your Questions.
And I doubt that I am the first to post what nature created.
I do not care for the politics of shows.
Perhaps you should come to Texas for the Collecting.
Where did I say that this would not be maintained?
Irene

 

[irene_b]

BillS,

Good, honest, straight to the point post, thank you.



Irene,

Which of these collected trees that you have posted are the "perfect" trees you talked about? I don't personally see one that works as a bonsai as is...?




Will

Each of these are perfect.
Irene

 

[Behr]

Quite honestly, I don't care at all for the composition being discussed, it just doesn't speak to me personally for a number of reasons...However, I do strongly defend the right for Ms. Irene, or anyone else, to create and enjoy what they prefer, without being subjected to conforming to the 'ideas or rules' which someone else considers important...Ms. Irene did not ask me what she should do differently to make this composition work for me...She also did not ask me how to make this composition conform to the 'approved guidelines' by which bonsai are judged from many people...As a matter of fact, I believe Ms. Irene stated she was very happy with the 'start' of the composition...I don't necessarily agree with her 'stated' plan for developing the composition, however neither she, I, nor anyone else can predict the outcome of this plan accurately...Having known Ms. Irene for a short time, and witnessing her work and determination, I do look forward to seeing what this becomes a few years from now...I also think her statement on the 'plan of action', and the 'interpretation' of her statement may not be on the same page...

I have great respect for the 'history' and 'artistic concepts' we have inherited from the 'Asian' world, and I truly believe, following the ways of the Japanese people in the art of bonsai is as good of a way to learn and develop skills as any...I do not however appreciate the 'know-it-all' attitude of many, which seem to judge all trees according to 'their personal' likes and dislikes, and insist that all others conform to 'their' standards...The tree either works or it don't for the individual viewer...I have stated before, and still firmly believe, as long as we continue to attempt to create our trees according to the Japanese standard we will always be left behind...They have been doing what they do with trees much longer than we have, and they understand their culture and art better than we do...Only when we are willing to attempt 'new' design concepts and techniques, will we be able to develop and improve the art of bonsai for the Western world...

Regards
Behr

 

[Anonymous User]

Each of these are perfect.

You are free to believe that, of course. The sad fact however is that none of them are perfect as bonsai, which is what this discussion is about. They are only perfect in the sense that they are living creations of nature, as bonsai, they all fall horribly short. None could be put into a bonsai pot and left without human intervention and be seen as perfect bonsai as you suggested, sorry.

I find it incredible that you are arguing that bonsai can be created without human intervention and that letting branches grow and set wherever they will is the best course of action. I find it just as amazing that you believe that perfect bonsai can be found in nature and only needs a pot. Your examples fall far short of this claim. There might be one in a billion trees in nature that could make it from field to pot with little work artistically, even then without pruning, styling, and wiring, they would quickly turn into a bush.

You are of course free to believe whatever you wish and to style bonsai in any manner you see fit, however you can not expect such unsubstantiated claims to go totally unchallenged when you post them publicly. I challenge not for the [pleasure of it, not for personal reasons, but indeed because I know what you are claiming is wrong. I also personally think that such statements are harmful in the sense that less experienced readers may actually believe it as truth.

That being said, as always I am open to debate on the matter and would welcome opposing arguments. I am extremely curious as to if there is another person at all who also holds the same beliefs as you do in regards to this subject..



Will

 

[irene_b]

Quite honestly, I don't care at all for the composition being discussed, it just doesn't speak to me personally for a number of reasons...However, I do strongly defend the right for Ms. Irene, or anyone else, to create and enjoy what they prefer, without being subjected to conforming to the 'ideas or rules' which someone else considers important...Ms. Irene did not ask me what she should do differently to make this composition work for me...She also did not ask me how to make this composition conform to the 'approved guidelines' by which bonsai are judged from many people...As a matter of fact, I believe Ms. Irene stated she was very happy with the 'start' of the composition...I don't necessarily agree with her 'stated' plan for developing the composition, however neither she, I, nor anyone else can predict the outcome of this plan accurately...Having known Ms. Irene for a short time, and witnessing her work and determination, I do look forward to seeing what this becomes a few years from now...I also think her statement on the 'plan of action', and the 'interpretation' of her statement may not be on the same page...

I have great respect for the 'history' and 'artistic concepts' we have inherited from the 'Asian' world, and I truly believe, following the ways of the Japanese people in the art of bonsai is as good of a way to learn and develop skills as any...I do not however appreciate the 'know-it-all' attitude of many, which seem to judge all trees according to 'their personal' likes and dislikes, and insist that all others conform to 'their' standards...The tree either works or it don't for the individual viewer...I have stated before, and still firmly believe, as long as we continue to attempt to create our trees according to the Japanese standard we will always be left behind...They have been doing what they do with trees much longer than we have, and they understand their culture and art better than we do...Only when we are willing to attempt 'new' design concepts and techniques, will we be able to develop and improve the art of bonsai for the Western world...

Regards
Behr

Thank You Behr for bringing this topic to the light:
I have great respect for the 'history' and 'artistic concepts' we have inherited from the 'Asian' world, and I truly believe, following the ways of the Japanese people in the art of bonsai is as good of a way to learn and develop skills as any.
I agree with this statement.
But I would add as well the non rules if you will of the Chinese penjing.
To all those who do Bonsai it is a beginning to the learning process, but it lacks a lot to me when it comes to what I see in my world of wonderment.
I admire greatly the works of Behr and Walter and Hans and others who step out of the percieved "Normal" when they are letting the magic flow from their minds and then to bring the tree and the vision that they see and to share it with the world. Do you ask Behr or Walter or Hans to justify why they did this or that? The answer is No! You just sit back and enjoy the ride and share the vision. They each have a wonderful way of showing their vision!
Irene

 

[Anonymous User]

I recently have found a great deal of respect for your thoughts Behr, but I find myself in minor disagreement with some as posted here.

Quite honestly, I don't care at all for the composition being discussed, it just doesn't speak to me personally for a number of reasons...However, I do strongly defend the right for Ms. Irene, or anyone else, to create and enjoy what they prefer, without being subjected to conforming to the 'ideas or rules' which someone else considers important...

I agree with you Behr, everyone has the right to do whatever they please, they can carve cartoon faces in trunks, wire all branches straight up, only leave one branch on each tree, whatever, it is there right. They can believe that a blade of grass qualifies as a bonsai, that a seedling in a pot is on the same level as an ancient, twisted, Mugo Pine, they can believe that the sapling they collected is a perfect bonsai, they have that right.

No one is suggesting Irene doesn't have the right to enjoy her work, far from it. However, if they choose to post such on a public forum, others have the right to challenge these beliefs, this is how information is tested, it is called peer review and it works. What can be debated successfully, supported, and substantiated, will live on as feasible, workable, and doable, what can not stand this test will die as foolishness and folly.

This is how bad information is curtailed and good information is cultivated. No one attacked Irene, only some of the statements she made are under debate, not her personally.

Those who do not want their beliefs, thoughts, or work examined, critiqued, or dissected have the option of not posting on a public forum where not only is such examination common, it is expected. There are other alternatives, personal web pages, blogs, etc for those who only want to show there work without receiving comments. A forum is not one of these options.

Do we really want a "All Praise, All the Time" forum where the most far-fetched, insane, dangerous ideas are praised right along side of the inspirational, educational, and truly helpful ones?

I have great respect for the 'history' and 'artistic concepts' we have inherited from the 'Asian' world, and I truly believe, following the ways of the Japanese people in the art of bonsai is as good of a way to learn and develop skills as any...I do not however appreciate the 'know-it-all' attitude of many, which seem to judge all trees according to 'their personal' likes and dislikes, and insist that all others conform to 'their' standards...

I don't know how this turned into a Japanese Styling debate, it is not. It is an artistically feasible design debate that has little if anything to do with the Japanese guidelines. Letting a tree grow as it will without intervention is akin to setting a block of granite outside to let erosion sculpt for you because of a belief that nature does better work. How is this tied to Japanese rules?

Stating that nature creates perfect bonsai without man's intervention also has nothing what-so-ever to do with Japanese styling or rules.

I am not debating Irene's attempt at a forest, I stated it has possibilities, what I am debating is a couple beliefs she expressed in this thread as mentioned above. Can we keep it straight and on point?

 

[irene_b]

I recently have found a great deal of respect for your thoughts Behr, but I find myself in minor disagreement with some as posted here.


I agree with you Behr, everyone has the right to do whatever they please, they can carve cartoon faces in trunks, wire all branches straight up, only leave one branch on each tree, whatever, it is there right. They can believe that a blade of grass qualifies as a bonsai, that a seedling in a pot is on the same level as an ancient, twisted, Mugo Pine, they can believe that the sapling they collected is a perfect bonsai, they have that right.

No one is suggesting Irene doesn't have the right to enjoy her work, far from it. However, if they choose to post such on a public forum, others have the right to challenge these beliefs, this is how information is tested, it is called peer review and it works. What can be debated successfully, supported, and substantiated, will live on as feasible, workable, and doable, what can not stand this test will die as foolishness and folly.

This is how bad information is curtailed and good information is cultivated. No one attacked Irene, only some of the statements she made are under debate, not her personally.

Those who do not want their beliefs, thoughts, or work examined, critiqued, or dissected have the option of not posting on a public forum where not only is such examination common, it is expected. There are other alternatives, personal web pages, blogs, etc for those who only want to show there work without receiving comments. A forum is not one of these options.

Do we really want a "All Praise, All the Time" forum where the most far-fetched, insane, dangerous ideas are praised right along side of the inspirational, educational, and truly helpful ones?



I don't know how this turned into a Japanese Styling debate, it is not. It is an artistically feasible design debate that has little if anything to do with the Japanese guidelines. Letting a tree grow as it will without intervention is akin to setting a block of granite outside to let erosion sculpt for you because of a belief that nature does better work. How is this tied to Japanese rules?

Stating that nature creates perfect bonsai without man's intervention also has nothing what-so-ever to do with Japanese styling or rules.

I am not debating Irene's attempt at a forest, I stated it has possibilities, what I am debating is a couple beliefs she expressed in this thread as mentioned above. Can we keep it straight and on point?

Are you not putting words where none were said by me?
Irene

 

[Anonymous User]

Do you ask Behr or Walter or Hans to justify why they did this or that? The answer is No! You just sit back and enjoy the ride and share the vision. They each have a wonderful way of showing their vision!

The answer is YES!

I'm sorry, but we do ask artists on the caliber of Walter, Stevens, Brook, even Kimura to justify what they have created. To think that everyone just sits back and accepts the work presented shows a lack of knowledge of how the community actually is.

Do you realize that Walter was once heavily cruified for his work and beliefs? Do you know his naturalistic styling are still often attacked? Do you know that the traditionalists hated Kimura? I could go on, but the point is that no great artist is unchallenged, if they are not, then they are not being innovative.



Will

 

[irene_b]

The answer is YES!

I'm sorry, but we do ask artists on the caliber of Walter, Stevens, Brook, even Kimura to justify what they have created. To think that everyone just sits back and accepts the work presented shows a lack of knowledge of how the community actually is.

Do you realize that Walter was once heavily cruified for his work and beliefs? Do you know his naturalistic styling are still often attacked? Do you know that the traditionalists hated Kimura? I could go on, but the point is that no great artist is unchallenged, if they are not, then they are not being innovative.



Will

No! you ask them to teach why they did something!
I am very aware of the why's and when's that each was called on, but what was never challenged was their vision of the tree! For if that happened I have not seen it anywhere!
Irene

 

[Anonymous User]

Are you not putting words where none were said by me?
Irene

Not at all Irene,

If nature is a poor stylist why do you steal her style?
I collected more than a few perfect trees last March. Perfect height, perfect nebari, perfect roots!
Created by Nature who did a damm fine job without mankind touching it!
Why is it counter productive? And who does it offend?
And why the hell should I follow the rules laid out by Japan!
I am American and care less for the rules of Japan or the cookie cutter styles they teach or the many "S" shaped trees they feel we like!
This forest is for me and my joy and if it pleases others great! But if no one person likes it I could care less!
Irene

I have carefully stuck to the same two comments by you, first that you was going to let this forest grow by letting the trees merge and grow and set branches where they will. Second by your response to my challenge of that statement as quote above, in which you claimed you collected more than a few perfect trees from nature.

I disagreed that letting a tree grow Willy Nilly was a viable design option and I challenged you to show some of these "perfect" trees.


Will

 

[irene_b]

Not at all Irene,



I have carefully stuck to the same two comments by you, first that you was going to let this forest grow by letting the trees merge and grow and set branches where they will. Second by your response to my challenge of that statement as quote above, in which you claimed you collected more than a few perfect trees from nature.

I disagreed that letting a tree grow Willy Nilly was a viable design option and I challenged you to show some of these "perfect" trees.


Will

This is what I said!
These trees will grow into each other and set their limbs where they please.
Second: I did show you perfect Collected trees.
Irene

 

[Anonymous User]

No! you ask them to teach why they did something!
I am very aware of the why's and when's that each was called on, but what was never challenged was their vision of the tree! For if that happened I have not seen it anywhere!

Irene, you need to expand your horizons a bit, check out IBC, AoB, and especially bonsai-fachforum, where the artists communicate with the artists. The question why is often asked as much as the question how. The inexperienced ask how, the experienced ask why.

For clarification, No one here challenged your "vision" of this tree, only the techniques used to achieve it.


Have a good day,


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

This is what I said!
These trees will grow into each other and set their limbs where they please.
Second: I did show you perfect Collected trees.
Irene

Exactly.

And I said that allowing the trees to set thier limbs where they please is a bad choice of design options.

The trees you have shown are far from perfect, I'm sorry. They are in drastic need of human intervention to make a decent bonsai.


Gotta run,


Will