New American bonsai

[Vance Wood]

Yes, it's a strange thing, seing these guys having so many of these collected trees. There is a point where it makes no sense to have more of them in one backyard, since there is no way that one can keep up with them. And these are big trees, mostly. Also, there isn't an unlimited supply of buyers or hobbyists down here, and you cannot export them, since this is the only place they can survive.

So, it's just hoarding and competition.

This is not like Japan, where there was a huge market for collected trees because there was a large group of professional artisans who worked and finished these trees, and then sold them to rich collectors. Here, most of the trees are purchased by people who style them and collect them as well. And they are not full time professionals, so there is only a relatively small collection that one person can maintain. So, there is no "bonsai industry" to maintain a large number of show-ready trees, here in the US/California. A lot of these trees will just sit in someone's backyard for many years, without any work on them, beyond the occasional cut-back.

You may very well be right but I don't think you know that for sure. There is one way to find out. Discover who one or more of "These Guys" are and ask them why they do what they do? All I have really heard is conjecture. There is always the chance that a lot of these trees are being harvested in order to save them-----but I don't know---this is conjecture too.

 

[Attila Soos]

You may very well be right but I don't think you know that for sure. There is one way to find out. Discover who one or more of "These Guys" are and ask them why they do what they do? All I have really heard is conjecture. There is always the chance that a lot of these trees are being harvested in order to save them-----but I don't know---this is conjecture too.

Well, most of them I know personally. They tell me that they go collecting almost weekly. And sometimes I am able to get these trees very cheaply. The last one I paid a little over $100, a massive trunk and very old tree, long established, and never worked on. Vastly under-priced, for such an old tree. But when you have so many, $100 is better than nothing.
They don't tell me exactly how many they have, but from these conversations, it's pretty clear that they have a LOT.

So, living in the midst of this community, it's not hard to take an educated quess. They are great people, by the way, and it's good for the bonsai community. But I try not to dig too deeply, regarding the collection practices.

 

[Smoke]

Well, most of them I know personally. They tell me that they go collecting almost weekly. And sometimes I am able to get these trees very cheaply. The last one I paid a little over $100, a massive trunk and very old tree, long established, and never worked on. Vastly under-priced, for such an old tree. But when you have so many, $100 is better than nothing.
They don't tell me exactly how many they have, but from these conversations, it's pretty clear that they have a LOT.

So, living in the midst of this community, it's not hard to take an educated quess. They are great people, by the way, and it's good for the bonsai community. But I try not to dig too deeply, regarding the collection practices.

ahhh...it seems many have an edge they are willing to walk out to, but reserve the right to yell Geronimo....that I can respect.

 

[Attila Soos]

ahhh...it seems many have an edge they are willing to walk out to, but reserve the right to yell Geronimo....that I can respect.

It's a murky situation, at best.

Murky waters are good for fishing, right?

 

[nathanbs]

You may very well be right but I don't think you know that for sure. There is one way to find out. Discover who one or more of "These Guys" are and ask them why they do what they do? All I have really heard is conjecture. There is always the chance that a lot of these trees are being harvested in order to save them-----but I don't know---this is conjecture too.

Its not considered a guess when I have personally seen a guy that is completely off the bonsai radar as far as clubs and classes are concerned, with a back yard full of California Junipers. From there its hearsay, "he says they have a very high survival rate, over 90%, he says they go every weekend, he says his friends have more than him."
Oddly somehow my original point was somehow distracted onto these new guys collecting habits when I was wanted to talk crap about the collecting of the past where very little has survived the test of time. My personal stance is that I am ok with these trees being collected as long as they survive, not just initially but in the long run as well. I think all in all trees being collected by professional collectors like the Shimons and R. Knight are much more likely to not only survive but also be sold and appreciated at a greater level than those that are being collected by amateurs and/or "professionals" that just stock pile them away(yes im sure its some sort of retirement plan). What if one of those guys decides he doesn't like bonsai anymore or collecting or whatever his hobby is and he lets them all die? After all he got them for free, what does he care?

 

[Smoke]

It's a murky situation, at best.

Murky waters are good for fishing, right?

Only with lights and a can of creamcorn.

 

[Vance Wood]

Well, most of them I know personally. They tell me that they go collecting almost weekly. And sometimes I am able to get these trees very cheaply. The last one I paid a little over $100, a massive trunk and very old tree, long established, and never worked on. Vastly under-priced, for such an old tree. But when you have so many, $100 is better than nothing.
They don't tell me exactly how many they have, but from these conversations, it's pretty clear that they have a LOT.

So, living in the midst of this community, it's not hard to take an educated quess. They are great people, by the way, and it's good for the bonsai community. But I try not to dig too deeply, regarding the collection practices.

Something more than I think so, and I bet----

I agree, if these guys are furnishing quality trees at low prices it is a good thing for the bonsai community.

 

[Vance Wood]

Its not considered a guess when I have personally seen a guy that is completely off the bonsai radar as far as clubs and classes are concerned, with a back yard full of California Junipers. From there its hearsay, "he says they have a very high survival rate, over 90%, he says they go every weekend, he says his friends have more than him."
Oddly somehow my original point was somehow distracted onto these new guys collecting habits when I was wanted to talk crap about the collecting of the past where very little has survived the test of time. My personal stance is that I am ok with these trees being collected as long as they survive, not just initially but in the long run as well. I think all in all trees being collected by professional collectors like the Shimons and R. Knight are much more likely to not only survive but also be sold and appreciated at a greater level than those that are being collected by amateurs and/or "professionals" that just stock pile them away(yes im sure its some sort of retirement plan). What if one of those guys decides he doesn't like bonsai anymore or collecting or whatever his hobby is and he lets them all die? After all he got them for free, what does he care?

It seems as the fog of examining reality clears we are starting to see the truth of the matter. Most of these guys collect and some sell but it does not seem to me that any laws have been broken and the trees seem to be doing well.

You should research your bonsai history. There were, many years ago in Japan an abundance of professional bonsai harvesters, some of them had legendary status. If you have Kimura's book one of the projects illustrated was a Shimpaku that was improperly harvested and cared for that he planted up-side-down growing what was still alive at the top as a cutting. The tree survived and it is now a classic example of his work.

 

[nathanbs]

It seems as the fog of examining reality clears we are starting to see the truth of the matter. Most of these guys collect and some sell but it does not seem to me that any laws have been broken and the trees seem to be doing well.

You should research your bonsai history. There were, many years ago in Japan an abundance of professional bonsai harvesters, some of them had legendary status. If you have Kimura's book one of the projects illustrated was a Shimpaku that was improperly harvested and cared for that he planted up-side-down growing what was still alive at the top as a cutting. The tree survived and it is now a classic example of his work.

I'll leave the legal aspect alone as I do not know one way or another where exactly they are being harvested from nor do I care. After all laws are meant to be broken.
Why do you assume that I have zero knowledge of bonsai history and why do you assume that I don't have kimuras books? You know you write in a very demeaning look down your nose at me kind of way. Why is that?

 

[JasonG]

Unreal

I leave for a while and happen to come back to look at a tree sold in Portland and stumble upon this thread.

Al, What the F@#K are you doing or thinking? Just because you seem to think something is dead doesn't mean it is. You are not the "this tree is dead know it all police" You are not the first person to come from California and look at these trees and think they are dead. Infact the 2 biggest names in Cal. bonsai know better than that. They originally thought the same as you but they followed the trees and found that yes this is indeed normal for color changes. Rocky Mt. Juniper is not California Juniper.

First thing is first, you don't know the area, you don't know where the trees were collected from and know that this is typical of them in the wild and in the winters here in Portland. 99% of the trees posted by you lived just fine and are in some of the best collections in America. You should do some research before you go getting people all riled up and making people look bad. Actual research, not what you think happened to these trees.

As for the pile of trees in the background.....sure some trees die. That is the name of the game and is to be expected. Trees on your bench die too, its no different. When you collect the numbers that Randy does (or anyone for that matter) you will get loss. Some people more than others and I assure you Randy is at the top when it comes to survival rates. He is over 97% as of earlier this year. Thats pretty damned good!! There is another collector in the NW who has been at it a long time and I assure you he is lucky to hover around 60%..... And think about this for a minute....there are people who buy and pay descent money for dead juniper trunks!!! Hmmm, some of them taken from the mts dead???? food for thought.

I am not going to get into sticking up for Ryan, no need to. His website, trees, work throughout the US and Japan, and garden speak for themselves and only someone who is uneducated in bonsai, lives under a rock or is a "Grow it from seed person" would need to have to be slapped upside the head so they can open their eyes to the real deal.

Collected vs nursery stock? That debate has been going on for years and will continue to go on for years. I have wasted too much of my time over the years promoting my thoughts on it. Its what works best for your budget and where you want to end up in bonsai.

So to recap-

Al is stirring sh!t and has no clue about what is alive or dead
Walter and Ryan buy dead trees but are true magicians- bring them back to life and style them into great bonsai.
Randy's success rate is much higher than this thread leads on
Study Ryans website, Artisan Cup website (which is Ryans) and keep an eye on him.
Junipers can change colors from green to blue to purple to yellow, to golden brown to red and still be just fine. It depends on the region they grow in, sub species and the region they are brought to after collection.

For the record, I am riding motocross, expanding the koi collection and working on trees. I am teaching a friend, working on his collection and making pretty trees. Its fun. I will be back in the mts collecting in 2-3 years.

Ok. thats all I have for now.

Jason

 

[milehigh_7]

I leave for a while and happen to come back to look at a tree sold in Portland and stumble upon this thread.

[...]

Jason

Hi Jason! Welcome back! This is just like old times no?

 

[Vance Wood]

I'll leave the legal aspect alone as I do not know one way or another where exactly they are being harvested from nor do I care. After all laws are meant to be broken.
Why do you assume that I have zero knowledge of bonsai history and why do you assume that I don't have kimuras books? You know you write in a very demeaning look down your nose at me kind of way. Why is that?

'
I didn't say definitively either thing. I assumed, wrong on my part, that a lot of people today doing bonsai have not read a lot of old information and many of the modern era bonsai books are lacking in that information. I have over twenty bonsai books dating back to 1957 and only a couple of the older ones touch on the subject. As to the Kimura book I was not assuming you did not have it I suggested you look at it.

 

[nathanbs]

'
I didn't say definitively either thing. I assumed, wrong on my part, that a lot of people today doing bonsai have not read a lot of old information and many of the modern era bonsai books are lacking in that information. I have over twenty bonsai books dating back to 1957 and only a couple of the older ones touch on the subject. As to the Kimura book I was not assuming you did not have it I suggested you look at it.

In the frustration I think I missed your point. What is it that you are trying to say or explain about the old Japanese harvesters?

 

[Vance Wood]

In the frustration I think I missed your point. What is it that you are trying to say or explain about the old Japanese harvesters?

The first bonsai were all collected trees. There were some of these collectors that had legendary status. Most of the collectors (those who have collections) did not go out and climb mountains to harvest their trees. The procured their material from those who did. My point is that harvesting or collecting Yamadori is as old as bonsai, this is nothing new, of course I think you know this. I'm not sure whether or not you favor collecting from the wild or not, and you also seem to be upset that in your opinion some of these guys have just too many trees.

The question is how many are too many? If they can collect trees and it is done legally it seems to me they can have as many trees as they want. I would rather see a tree collected by someone who has a vested interest in keeping it alive than bull dozed. If I remember correctly there was one site where there were a lot of, what we would call good trees, that was bull dozed. All of these really good trees were put into a pile for fire wood. These kinds of trees are of little to no use to anyone but us bonsai fanatics.
It was only until recently that trees became farm produced because the government in Japan has forbidden most collecting, today most of the collectable material is gone. I don't want to see government get involved in bonsai in any way, shape, or form.

 

[nathanbs]

Thanks for the clarification. I definitely do not have a problem with collecting of any form. I only have a problem with people that either do not know what they are doing while collecting, do not provide proper after care, or just let the trees wither away at some point. These things along with other negligence has led to the demise of thousands of trees that would have been better off left where they were.

 

[Vance Wood]

Thanks for the clarification. I definitely do not have a problem with collecting of any form. I only have a problem with people that either do not know what they are doing while collecting, do not provide proper after care, or just let the trees wither away at some point. These things along with other negligence has led to the demise of thousands of trees that would have been better off left where they were.

Can't argue with that, you're right.

 

[Attila Soos]

For the record, I am riding motocross, expanding the koi collection and working on trees. I am teaching a friend, working on his collection and making pretty trees. Its fun. I will be back in the mts collecting in 2-3 years.

Ok. thats all I have for now.

Jason

Hey Jason,

Forget about koi, or biking. No need to die young, and you have no chance against the Japanese, when it comes to koi.

But it's time to get back in the bonsai business. We need more of those "killer trees" (your terminology, from long time ago).

We are going to write more posts like that to upset you, so that you can come by from time to time.

 

[Attila Soos]

BTW,

Can somebody tell me which of those collected species from Oregon can survive here in the Los Angeles area? I am itching to get a few of those "wild beasts", but don't know whether or not they will thrive down here. I use shade cloth for part of my collection, but that may or may not be enough. The best would be from someone who actually owns such trees, in my area.

 

[Poink88]

We are going to write more posts like that to upset you, so that you can come by from time to time.

LOL...true. Just like Walter Pall...

 

[Attila Soos]

LOL...true. Just like Walter Pall...

Yep, we need to designate one of us every week, in charge of offending people that we wish to come by...

Right now, I think it's time to offend (name removed), for a change.

What happened to Klytus? I miss his cryptic messages.