Mycorrhizae, bacteria, and modern bonsai substrate
- Thread starter One First Matter All
- Start date
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
The two that are mentioned in the Probio Carbon interview with Karen O’Haren(?) are Irish strains. B. Subtilus, or Hay bacteria. (11-52c in the lab)
and Pseudomonas Tranquillus (couldn’t find exact match on QC search) (4-42c).
Yet there was another one she used that I didn’t get its name that acts as a force multiplier for B Subtilus. (In Interview w/Peter Warren About Soil last week about 1/2 way through)
Anyways they all likely will to be active above 52F. Take your temperature probe with you
.I really like the forest soil in a bucket tea idea. Karen implies it would be even better to go to a long unused garden plot or disused crop field... for samples.
Cheers
DSD sends
Adaptation of Bacillus subtilis to growth at low temperature: a combined transcriptomic and proteomic appraisal
The soil bacterium Bacillus subtilis frequently encounters a reduction in temperature in its natural habitats. Here, a combined transcriptomic and proteomic approach has been used to analyse the adaptational responses of B. subtilis to low temperature. Propagation of B. subtilis in minimal...
Frontiers | Characterization of Pseudomonas spp. and Associated Proteolytic Properties in Raw Milk Stored at Low Temperatures
Milk spoilage is caused by the presence of proteolytic enzymes produced by Pseudomonas spp. during storage at low temperatures. The aim of this study was to ...
www.frontiersin.org
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks,Anthony.Nice tree for sure.My first impression was a perhaps a slight deficiency or excessive Humidity.If being the latter is the case ,if I am correct you live in the tropics? Just a normal thing I suppose........plant may not transpire as much and maybe get a deficiency of calcium eapecially.
Your tree could be considered the same generally as mine because it seems the only issues I am running into with my trees are deficiency once in awhile or root fungus.
Mostly nitrogen deficiency..or perhaps excess potassium or phospherous which will actually show as zinc deficiencies or vice versa? When I see Nitrogen deficiency ,it is instantly corrected in one day.
The only other thing I notice can be root rot fungus/spores.Roots sitting in water is usually the culprit.In my trays if I am too lazy to raise them.
They start to get unexplainably deficient when root fungus is present.I learned roots make wild ph changes when infected with rootrot and get irreversably deficient.
So really just deficiencies or fungus are the dissapointing things that can end a tree for me.Styling and propogating is the fun part.
I usually just toss trees with root fungus
Out of about 300 trees,I only had 3 or so with root fungus!!!
This product has apparently been proven to kill root rot fungus.Very concentrated....only 1/2 ml per gallon.
If I am correct I belive caustic potash is the secret ingrediant.
I think our trees compare nicely together really @Anthony
First yellow leaf I see...I completely panic.......something is not right......either deficiency or fungus......long and short.
What are bugs
I love indoor bonsai....actually best of both is very fun.ROOTS EXCELLURATER SILVER
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
When leaves on the Fustic yellow, it is because they
are old and ready to drop.
This is the tree that made us forget about the zelkova.
Now working on developing the mounds.
Thanks for looking.
Anthony
are old and ready to drop.
This is the tree that made us forget about the zelkova.
Now working on developing the mounds.
Thanks for looking.
Anthony
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks,Anthony.Nice tree for sure.My first impression was a perhaps a slight deficiency or excessive Humidity.If being the latter is the case ,if I am correct you live in the tropics? Just a normal thing I suppose........plant may not transpire as much and maybe get a deficiency of calcium eapecially.
Your tree could be considered the same generally as mine because it seems the only issues I am running into with my trees are deficiency once in awhile or root fungus.
Mostly nitrogen deficiency..or perhaps excess potassium or phospherous which will actually show as zinc deficiencies or vice versa? When I see Nitrogen deficiency ,it is instantly corrected in one day.
The only other thing I notice can be root rot fungus/spores.Roots sitting in water is usually the culprit.In my trays if I am too lazy to raise them.
They start to get unexplainably deficient when root fungus is present.I learned roots make wild ph changes when infected with rootrot and get irreversably deficient.
So really just deficiencies or fungus are the dissapointing things that can end a tree for me.Styling and propogating is the fun part.
I usually just toss trees with root fungus
Out of about 300 trees,I only had 3 or so with root fungus!!!
This product has apparently been proven to kill root rot fungus.Very concentrated....only 1/2 ml per gallon.
If I am correct I belive caustic potash is the secret ingrediant.
I think our trees compare nicely together really @Anthony
First yellow leaf I see...I completely panic.......something is not right......either deficiency or fungus......long and short.
What are bugs
ROOTS EXCELLURATER SILVER
View attachment 318627
Ouch! Actually sort of a real live let’s kill the bugs chemical?
Cool stuff!
Ammonium Nitrate* (CAS Number: 6484-52-2)
Potassium Hydroxide* (CAS Number: 1310-58-3)
With a little work a good chemist might be able to have some really good fun with this chemical
.Here’s the MSDS. It’s not the nicest for you. Wear all PPE and a really good matched respirator when using despite what is printed. ‘Gives off toxic fumes when heated’ and not requiring respiratory protection? That is suitable for a really good CHO laugh track!
Did I ever tell you about the study of US chemistry teachers average life span in 1960-1990 before the (forced) requirement to wear PPE? Way shorter then the biology teachers. Which were a bit shorter than the other non science teachers.... But the chemistry folks did report that they had alot of fun experimenting with chemicals...
btw: There is wisdom in the old ways, progress in some of the new ways. The trick is to go for the best new ways, and still use the wisdom of the old ways.
Cheers
DSD sends
A backyard wonder with the bonsais...
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Well this is exiting. A bio stimulant that is added to bonsai soil. Maybe my dreams are busy coming true...
Falls right into the theme of this thread to.
After a while I skipped ahead to the interview with Michael.
Good info, sucks we can't get it!
Brought to us by Guinness! Lol!
Sorce
fredman
Masterpiece
Yeah I love the man, but he hurts my ears sometimes.
Bummer I can get it either..but it's early days. In time this kinda stuff will be replacing the nukes on the shelves...hopefully sooner rather than we think.
Harunobu
Chumono
Digging back on into the research I did for a project we later never pursued, B.subtilis is a very genetic bacteria species. It is probably a huge umbrella of different strains. Some of them are a possible as bacterial growth in food products. Behind E coli it is probably B.subtilis, P.aeruginosa, and S.aureus as huge umbrella bacterial species that are relevant either clinically, or as food spoilers/poisoning. B.subtilis is well known as having a symbiotic relationship with plants. Either in the soil, the roots, the stems, or the leaves. But that's probably very specific strains that do this. B.subtilis is basically everywhere, soil, our food, our skin, our intestines.
And among the B.subtilis strains that are able to engage in a symbiotic relationship with plants, there are probably the generalists and the specialists. We looked at B.subtilis strains that helped plants like the cocoa trees. But then we stopped the project in favour of something else (a virus causing a global pandemic and diagnosing it with a cheap easily available test kit that was relatively immune for market failure, our project was in 2017).
Anyway, it you want to produce a bacterial product to help with plant growth, you need to isolate B.subtilis from plant tissue. This is not extremely hard thing to do. But if you want to do it properly, you then ID your strain and look for the genes that are associated with plant symbiosis. And it may be that for a certain species of plant, nothing is know about the S.subtilis that lives in them. So there is no way to check if the B.subtilis is a specialized symbiont, or just a generic soil strain. Then you can culture this bacteria. And as B.subtilis forms spores, one of the few bacteria that do, you can dry them in powder form and they store very well. And they can be reactivated later. But, you have to continuously isolate fresh B.subtilis from plant tissue. If you keep culturing the same bacteria, after so many generations you get genetic drift and evolution and you get a strain that evolved to grow in your lab. Not a strain that evolved to live in plant tissue and be beneficial to the plant.
So if you are in the growing B.subitilis spores and selling them to plant nuts business, it is really easy to cut corners and deliver useless B.subtilis spores. And as a customer, there is no way to check if the strain you are getting actually has the superior properties of a symbiont.
Besides B.subtilis, there are also many other species of bacteria, closerely and distantly related, that potentially could be beneficial.
And among the B.subtilis strains that are able to engage in a symbiotic relationship with plants, there are probably the generalists and the specialists. We looked at B.subtilis strains that helped plants like the cocoa trees. But then we stopped the project in favour of something else (a virus causing a global pandemic and diagnosing it with a cheap easily available test kit that was relatively immune for market failure, our project was in 2017).
Anyway, it you want to produce a bacterial product to help with plant growth, you need to isolate B.subtilis from plant tissue. This is not extremely hard thing to do. But if you want to do it properly, you then ID your strain and look for the genes that are associated with plant symbiosis. And it may be that for a certain species of plant, nothing is know about the S.subtilis that lives in them. So there is no way to check if the B.subtilis is a specialized symbiont, or just a generic soil strain. Then you can culture this bacteria. And as B.subtilis forms spores, one of the few bacteria that do, you can dry them in powder form and they store very well. And they can be reactivated later. But, you have to continuously isolate fresh B.subtilis from plant tissue. If you keep culturing the same bacteria, after so many generations you get genetic drift and evolution and you get a strain that evolved to grow in your lab. Not a strain that evolved to live in plant tissue and be beneficial to the plant.
So if you are in the growing B.subitilis spores and selling them to plant nuts business, it is really easy to cut corners and deliver useless B.subtilis spores. And as a customer, there is no way to check if the strain you are getting actually has the superior properties of a symbiont.
Besides B.subtilis, there are also many other species of bacteria, closerely and distantly related, that potentially could be beneficial.
fredman
Masterpiece
Yep one product to replace them all....but you don't seem ready to get some?
Harunobu
Chumono
Ammonium Nitrate* (CAS Number: 6484-52-2)
Potassium Hydroxide* (CAS Number: 1310-58-3)
With a little work a good chemist might be able to have some really good fun with this chemical
For a chemist, those are not particularity dangerous substances to handle, in lab quantities. The first one you don't want to heat. And the second one makes a very basic very corrosive solution that at high concentrations can make very nasty burns. Not recommended at all, but you could take a pellet of pure Potassium Hydroxide from a flash and handle it with your bare hands and throw it in your solution. Don't do this! If that thing or your hands are wet, it will burn terribly and you can't just wash it away. And you won't feel it burn. Your hands will feel soapy as it eats away the skin. At least with acids, you instantly feel it burn and you know not to touch. You wear glasses and maybe gloves and work in a fume hood with Potassium Hydroxide.
Ammonium Nitrate is just fertilizer. Which you don't want to heat up because of it's connection to explosives. Besides that, it is about as dangerous as table salt.
Potassium Hydroxide, why do you want that near your plants. You want them to experience a pH of 12? If your plant has a fungus problem, you don't add something that literally dissolves every living cell. You want something that targets fungi cells specifically.
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Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
While I am able to read about these things, it may be awhile until I actually put 2 and 2 together.
fredman
Masterpiece
Interesting. I use this in my vegetable garden...mostly against the white butterfly. Works beautifully. Two years ago worms ate all the leaves off a beech I planted in the bed to fatten up. Last year I used it once a month and it didn't loose a leaf.
Harunobu
Chumono
B.thurigiensis is famous for producing the Bt toxin/cry protein, which makes pores in insect cells and thus acts as a potent insecticide.
en.wikipedia.org
Not sure how effective B.thurigiensis spores actually are as a biological insecticide, but the science is there.
Delta endotoxins - Wikipedia
Not sure how effective B.thurigiensis spores actually are as a biological insecticide, but the science is there.
fredman
Masterpiece
Ah most all goes over my head...but that spurs me on even more. For me it's exiting times. Big names in bonsai are looking in the right direction....and doing the work. Nature knows how to target pathogens. All we need to do is observe and learn from it...shift our focus...away from status quo. A healthy eco system whether it's in a bonsai pot, or the African savanna, is the way to get there. That's how I see it anyways.
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for this explanation✌
Although when I dilute a1/2 ml into my 3L watering jug it becomes .17 ppm in my nutrient solution drench.
Is this really harmful?
..........although they do store in aluminum cans for a reason????
Hydro guy said they only stock the gold label as the silver eats through the cans if they do not sell.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Cool!
That would have to be an awfully awesome fungi and bacteria, possibly one that you wouldn’t normally want around. Likely they aren’t alive, or have sporulated it they are.
Concentration and dose is always the key. safe for whom/what is the next. For you, likely, as long as you don’t get it in on your skin or in your body or aspirate it. For the critters, that would be a nice research project. Friends of mine seem to think that the chem companies already know... I try to stay away from that rabbit hole.
Little critter populations bounce back fast eventually. However they can come back in ways you don’t imagine. But we’ve been dosing Bonsai for a long time with all kinds of products for years.... not that it’s a good thing, it’s what we’ve ‘always’ done since the 1950s in the US.
The thought is what is your goal here?
Here’s an idea, leave a couple trees untreated and catch their water about a week after you treat the others. Then include this water when watering the others for a week or so. That might help the lil guys bounce back.
I did say that a chemist could have some fun with that product. Lots of what’s used, like “ordinary fertilizer“ can be dangerous when exposed to certain conditions... aka Timothy McVey and OK City.
The key is to know the hazards and consciously avoid these.
Best
DSD sends
That would have to be an awfully awesome fungi and bacteria, possibly one that you wouldn’t normally want around. Likely they aren’t alive, or have sporulated it they are.
Concentration and dose is always the key. safe for whom/what is the next. For you, likely, as long as you don’t get it in on your skin or in your body or aspirate it. For the critters, that would be a nice research project. Friends of mine seem to think that the chem companies already know... I try to stay away from that rabbit hole.
Little critter populations bounce back fast eventually. However they can come back in ways you don’t imagine. But we’ve been dosing Bonsai for a long time with all kinds of products for years.... not that it’s a good thing, it’s what we’ve ‘always’ done since the 1950s in the US.
The thought is what is your goal here?
Here’s an idea, leave a couple trees untreated and catch their water about a week after you treat the others. Then include this water when watering the others for a week or so. That might help the lil guys bounce back.
I did say that a chemist could have some fun with that product. Lots of what’s used, like “ordinary fertilizer“ can be dangerous when exposed to certain conditions... aka Timothy McVey and OK City.
The key is to know the hazards and consciously avoid these.
Best
DSD sends
cmeg1
Imperial Masterpiece
Still though....a tenth of a ppm?
root rot sucks in a hydro room...I’ll use it
root rot sucks in a hydro room...I’ll use it
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Id say carefully go for it if you have root rot. How often do you intend to dose?
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fredman
Masterpiece
How fantastic will it be, if we had a natural biological product that we add to our inorganic soil to aid us in our war against pathogenic fungi?B.thurigiensis is famous for producing the Bt toxin/cry protein, which makes pores in insect cells and thus acts as a potent insecticide.
Delta endotoxins - Wikipedia
Not sure how effective B.thurigiensis spores actually are as a biological insecticide, but the science is there.
It must be THE biggest problem I gauge on this forum....What is this fungis and how to get rid of it...? Thread after thread after thread about maple leaves for instance...!
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