Mycorrhizae, bacteria, and modern bonsai substrate

[Bnana]

Mycorrhizal fungi are not one group. Most research is done on arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi but most trees have ectomycorrhiza. These are very, very different. (And Azaleas have EMR as already mentioned). They interact with plants in a different way and have different strategies to take up nutrients.

Within these groups differences are huge as well. Some mycorrhiza are beneficial but some are actually costly for your tree. These just take sugars but hardly give anything back.

 

[leatherback]

Have you seen the other 2, 3 threads on this which started some weeks ago?

 

[leatherback]

This one https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/peter-warren-on-soil-health.44725/

 

[leatherback]

Here is another: https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/what-is-heavy-feeding.44764/page-2

 

[cmeg1]

saying any ol' fertilizer will do; go for what's cheapest,

Yes.I with you on that.It is actually in the trees genetics to not even have all the ‘luxery nitrogen’.
I ‘m an advocate for using humic and fulvic acids to make plant growth promoting elements much more available.
On the level of ec( electrrical conductivity) I nearly cut my npk salts by 30% , by having fulvic acid present.This low molecular weight humic substance can pass through cell walls very easy in a slittle as 4 hrs and carries along growth elements with it.Less salt in the substrate and more water.
I am below 1 ec well into veg until I finally bump up to 1.2-1.4 when trees get mature.Fulvic is very beneficial.
There are times I can bak down to .6 or less ec and tree will just rest and photo synthesize.
Another misconception is trees need to grow to produce energy.Perhaps grow on a microscopic level yes,but essentially they photosynthesize and buil high brix when they are not pushing extreme growth from luxery nitrogen.
Trees are totally genetically able to just gain masses of energy from photosynthesizing.I like to exploit that mainly......very exciting to let a tree get high brix and strong and also exploit photosynthesis in general.
I did this with quite small plants and used bio stimulants on leaves and results are astounding on some varieties.(increased co2,increased photosynthesis,very low nitrogen,lots of bio stimulants,loads of extra calcium) produced these results.Nackbudding on 1inch branches.The tree could of stayed halted growth like this all season.Was very strong with no meristem growth.
High brix.
All these trees below were 7mnths old or less!!!

 

[cmeg1]

 

[Anthony]

@One First Matter All ,

Suggestion - Get some older heads [ growers with 25 plus years of
growing to chime in, see their work ]
Good Day
Anthony

* Their trees would be the proof of soil mixes.

 

[One First Matter All]

Have you seen the other 2, 3 threads on this which started some weeks ago?

Yes, I saw those threads. This thread has sort of morphed into a similar discussion. However, I initiated the post because I couldn't find anything specifically on myc. growth in modern bonsai substrate.

 

[One First Matter All]

@One First Matter All ,

Suggestion - Get some older heads [ growers with 25 plus years of
growing to chime in, see their work ]
Good Day
Anthony

* Their trees would be the proof of soil mixes.

Yeah, I know that older growers have amazing trees that showcase their bonsai abilities, but I also understand that even many masters in Japan use a veritable TON of chemicals (both chemical fertilizer and chemical pesticides/fungicides) to maintain their trees. I'm looking to go more organic, even if it means foregoing the level of bonsai stardom of my dreams.

Of course, there are some older (and newer!) practitioners--perhaps you're one of them?--that insist on an organic model of feeding and disease prevention. I'm all for it. As a newbie, though, I couldn't find anything specifically addressing how to grow strong, "good" fungus in modern substrate, since, as I said, so many enthusiasts just assume they're going to be blasting their trees with chemicals.

 

[One First Matter All]

So here's the kicker. It is often said not to fertilize plants that have been newly potted (and repotted).

I don't think that should be the case for Ericaceous plants. I'm thinking it will stunt the growth of the plant worse that originally intended. The whole idea is to bootstrap the pot's ecological system back into gear. Get the EMR Interface healthy.

So what do you do? Feed it a weak solution of Miracle Grow for acid loving plants.... good for the plant not good for the EMR interface. Put cottonseed/blood meal chunks on it - much better, but its a slow release fertilizer that takes time to get things moving. Too slow for the system in this moment in time.

Awesome! Thank you. I have an Azalea that will need repotted next year--this is perfect.

 

[One First Matter All]

This assertion(s) is not to pick a side or devils advocate, but it seems that combining bonsai (common bonsai container grown practices) with true peer reviewed research that is often subject to a vast array of methodology in practice (not bonsai), and often ag-related, it seems unfortunately difficult to find a hill to die on or raise a definitive flag.

When species and even plant families are pooled into such a discussion it is beyond muddy or vague....

I agree that it can be confusing. At the end of the day, it comes down to what this particular tree needs at this particular time. However, I do think it is possible (I hope!) to start from some general principles and then modify those principles to suit the needs of a particular species and particular tree. Even these general principles will be different, of course, depending on what kind of bonsai a person wants to practice. For instance, I feel like a big fork in the road occurs between the organic and non-organic crowd.

 

[One First Matter All]

Mycorrhizal fungi are not one group. Most research is done on arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi but most trees have ectomycorrhiza. These are very, very different. (And Azaleas have EMR as already mentioned). They interact with plants in a different way and have different strategies to take up nutrients.

Within these groups differences are huge as well. Some mycorrhiza are beneficial but some are actually costly for your tree. These just take sugars but hardly give anything back.

That makes sense, and thanks. At the same time, isn't there some continuity across the fungal spectrum? I'm just looking for general advice on how to encourage fungal growth in a pot. I assume the tree will decide what kind of fungus it wants and doesn't want.

 

[cmeg1]

I'm just looking for general advice on how to encourage fungal growth in a pot.

Definately use organic sources like rock phosphate and such....they will flourish!!!!!
It is not the amount of phospherous........it is whether organic or instantly available.
Microbes on the other hand will proliferate either way in my understanding.
I like myco better in open soil.
Get ph proper also........soil is slightly higher.....hydro/or bonsai rocks is 5.8-6.4. Volcanic aggregate IS drain to waste hydroponics

it really is the missing link to nutrient and metal ion assimilation!!!!!
Get some ph up/down usually only 4 to 10 drops per gallon is needed either way?????? !!!!!!!!!!!

Amazon.com: GH General Hydroponics pH Up and pH Down 1 Quart Combo Kit Water Adjuster Buffer : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: GH General Hydroponics pH Up and pH Down 1 Quart Combo Kit Water Adjuster Buffer : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

 

[One First Matter All]

Get some ph up/down

Thanks! I think we think alike.

 

[Forsoothe!]

How about Aluminum Sulfate as the down agent?

 

[cmeg1]

How about Aluminum Sulfate as the down agent?

Not sure really.All I know is general hydroponics been around since the 70s

 

[cmeg1]

Check every gallon of water.....it is that important!!!
No iron ,no photosynthesis.No zinc,no nothing!!!
This stuff needs metal ion to start their wonderful processes.Some kind of initiating charge co-factor or something.

 

[Bnana]

How about Aluminum Sulfate as the down agent?

Aluminium is pretty toxic when in solution. It will probably be bound pretty quickly as you'll use this when the pH is too high. But I'd prefer organic compounds like humic acids to lower pH.

 

[fredman]

Definately use organic sources like rock phosphate and such....they will flourish!!!!!
It is not the amount of phospherous........it is whether organic or instantly available.
Microbes on the other hand will proliferate either way in my understanding.
I like myco better in open soil.
Get ph proper also........soil is slightly higher.....hydro/or bonsai rocks is 5.8-6.4. Volcanic aggregate IS drain to waste hydroponics

it really is the missing link to nutrient and metal ion assimilation!!!!!
Get some ph up/down usually only 4 to 10 drops per gallon is needed either way?????? !!!!!!!!!!!

Amazon.com: GH General Hydroponics pH Up and pH Down 1 Quart Combo Kit Water Adjuster Buffer : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Amazon.com: GH General Hydroponics pH Up and pH Down 1 Quart Combo Kit Water Adjuster Buffer : Patio, Lawn & Garden

www.amazon.com

I've always wondered what the Ph is inside my pots and how to best test it. These test kits are developed for garden soil and I don't see them being very accurate with a inorganic soil.
How do I test Ph then?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Aluminium is pretty toxic when in solution. It will probably be bound pretty quickly as you'll use this when the pH is too high. But I'd prefer organic compounds like humic acids to lower pH.

I sprinkle this on the top of my soil and water it in. The sulfur dissolves more slowly than the ~Aluminum. I use it when I see leaves with problems.