Mycorrhizae, bacteria, and modern bonsai substrate

[cmeg1]

btw would you root and leaf prune and wire in hydroponics land?

It can be great fun.........extended season too✌

I have a zillion pictures and love sharing too
Not a single tree below is more than about 6-7 mnths if I am correct

 

[cmeg1]

Hydro JBP regular seedling.
9/23/19-4/7/20 !!!!!!
Was an absolute beast!
6mnths+2wks

 

[Harunobu]

I think stating that substrate inorganic material cannot support a microbiome needs some evidence. And that without that evidence, we will have to assume that mixes like pumice, perlite, akadama, vermiculite, will also allow for a microbiome that is in symbiosis with the roots. Yes, since they are different you would like to assume that there are differences. Likely, organisms like mycorrhiza need some food source other than the roots to quickly colonize the root system. Are mycorrhiza spores everywhere and are they continuously falling on the substrate of all our pots, then washing down into the roots when we water? And if you were to add a dilute fungal growth medium to your substrate-potted bonsai, why wouldn't that result in all fungi in growing? That likely wouldn't be the mycorrhiza.

Plants that depend on mycorrhiza or other microorganisms likely have intricate mechanisms to attract those fungi and avoid bad fungi from colonizing their root systems.

So my assumption would be that the microbiome organisms are ubiquitous. And that there are many broad spectrum unspecialized species out there that can adapt to your plant species, even if your plant species has a specialized microbe species in their native environment, that does not exist where you are growing your non-native plant. And that both plant and fungi/bacteria are able to find each other and develop the symbiotic relationship. Including in soilless mixes/substrates. And that things will work out even if there is a lack of nutrients in the soil because it is not an organic potting mix.

I do think that using fungicides will kill your mycorrhiza. I see people recommend using a broad-spectrum fungicide as a preventative measure. Those fungicides will kill all the fungi that are present. And in a species like a pine or a rhododendron, the fungi that are present are likely those in symbiosis with the plant. You aren't using it to treat a fungal disease that is already there.

Buying a culture of the ideal microbes for your species and inoculating your plant with it seems like an idea with a lot of potential. However, right now I don't think we know which strain is ideal or superior for a certain species, and if the specific strains are improvements over whatever microbes will appear spontaneously. Add that with the price of growing microbes in the lab as well as the quality control involved, and making sure they don't evolve to adapt to your production growing conditions rather than the plant leaves/roots/stems, and you will have an expensive nice product without it being clear if the benefits of the product justify that price.

You would think that under hydroponics you would have the least well developed microbiome. I think that in general for many species hydroponics are well developed. Not sure if there are species we know that develop rich microbiomes also do well in hydroponics. And if there is research on microbiomes in hydroponics settings. I would look there first.

 

[cmeg1]

Plants that depend on mycorrhiza or other microorganisms likely have intricate mechanisms to attract those fungi and avoid bad fungi from colonizing their root systems.

+1

I do think that using fungicides will kill your mycorrhiza.

Just use any one of these fertilizers or pest/fungicide control.Stop the confusion!
If your plants roots weaken from overly long ,thin ,leggy stems ,and are attacked by insects or fungus ..........just use one of our fungicide and pesticide controles
By the way we are a large holder of all these companies ......stock market looks well.
Buy in!
We also have affordable organic products too,if you cannot afford the Botanicare!!!

 

[cmeg1]

Honestly I can only eat organic cherry tomatoes.
I have not ate a biostimulant-hydroponic one yet!!!!
I hear you can increase the brix just the same either salts or natural processes

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting stuff @cmeg1

I’m not the one to doubt the effectiveness of increasing the strength/capacity of the microbiota, nor achieving high Birx if it can be done all at once and still produce long term healthy trees. I’ve seen some preliminary results and they are very interesting. Love the work being done to create tailor made colonies of microbes, sadly they are still concentration ephemeral over mere weeks.... Been using biochar all along. (Call Boon about “biochar“, he’s been advocating including it in bonsai media for quite awhile. (btw Some biochar produced in Ireland is also sprayed with bacterial inoculates. Not sure if that is a great advantage as it’s reported that soil bacteria will congregate in the biochar if it’s in the soil media)

But I’m absolutely not a fan of adding pH up and pH down products as chasing your tail when the goal should be creating and maintaining a healthy microbiome from the get go. Also regretfully I’m not in favor of jumping on the latest miracle products bandwagon without proper vetting, nor of constructed environments including CO2 tents etc to grow trees in. But willing to listen to all viewpoints.

My bonsais grow in my own backyard where I eat lunch with my better half between these and some of our garden beds where there are multiple birds, squirrels, alligator lizards, worms, slugs and such. So don’t want any nasty chems about at any time.

Some interesting information you offered there, but first I have to ask, just to clarify and me being curious:

Are you actively representing a company, or a bonsai enthusiast, or both and pushing a product line on the Forum?

Some interesting information. Just geeking out as a CHO.

Here’s the SDS for Ortho 3 in 1. It is hazardous per OSHA standards and listed as an eye irritant, with moderate damage and a skin irritant . You are supposed to avoid ingestion. Yet Ortho hasn’t tested the effect on humans as it’s meant for killing bugs. But you should avoid ingesting it. so the prudent person should wear goggles and gloves and London sleeves and pants and shoes for PPE. Just saying...

​

It would be be awful hard to convince a layman that use of this chemical product would not hurt the microbiome, getting rid of bugs and damaging the microbiome to boot.​

Pure Blend Pro Grow, Soil-and Pro Bloom. Let’s see whats in these products... here’s the laypersons SDS for all three And here’s the chemically oriented one. All three products contain dolomite, potassium carbonate, fish meal, seaweed extract, magnesium sulfate and humic acid In that order. Serious eye & moderate skin hazard and these are also acute dangers to aquatic creatures and Ingestion hazard... I guess all that’s not so good. Anyways there are some definite questions about the effect on the soil biome when using this stuff. Doesn’t say if dilute concentrations are aquatic hazards, so it’s assumed that it is hazardous to aquatic ecosystems at all concentrations unless otherwise indicated)
Goggles, gloves and long sleeves and pants and shoes for PPE and wash them all afterwards (Guess we should be a bit more careful when using this stuff)

By the way, the dolomite ingredient, which is listed first as the highest amount, ought to ever so slowly drive your soil pH up a bit every time you use these products...?

(This is a good reminder for me to order more humic acid.)

Miracle grow - SDS Here..... its just salty fertilizer with a bit of Sulphur and also a little Pyrethrins (nasty), plus a little Boric acid. Interesting to know about that... as I use this stuff about once every two months when I run out of fish fertilizer... It doesn’t appear to have any obvious hazards as it appears to have been run through the CPSC vs OSHA testing.

btw: its the MiracleGro for azaleas that has all the micronutrients

well, that’s the data. Do what you wish with it.

cheers
DSD sends
btw nice dense growth in your photos. I’m looking forward to seeing your progressions as you develop these into bonsai in 10 - 15 years

 

[cmeg1]

Interesting stuff @cmeg1

I’m not the one to doubt the effectiveness of increasing the strength/capacity of the microbiota, nor achieving high Birx if it can be done all at once and still produce long term healthy trees. I’ve seen some preliminary results and they are very interesting. Love the work being done to create tailor made colonies of microbes, sadly they are still concentration ephemeral over mere weeks.... Been using biochar all along. (Call Boon about “biochar“, he’s been advocating including it in bonsai media for quite awhile. (btw Some biochar produced in Ireland is also sprayed with bacterial inoculates. Not sure if that is a great advantage as it’s reported that soil bacteria will congregate in the biochar if it’s in the soil media)

But I’m absolutely not a fan of adding pH up and pH down products as chasing your tail when the goal should be creating and maintaining a healthy microbiome from the get go. Also regretfully I’m not in favor of jumping on the latest miracle products bandwagon without proper vetting, nor of constructed environments including CO2 tents etc to grow trees in. But willing to listen to all viewpoints.

My bonsais grow in my own backyard where I eat lunch with my better half between these and some of our garden beds where there are multiple birds, squirrels, alligator lizards, worms, slugs and such. So don’t want any nasty chems about at any time.

Some interesting information you offered there, but first I have to ask, just to clarify and me being curious:

Are you actively representing a company, or a bonsai enthusiast, or both and pushing a product line on the Forum?

Some interesting information. Just geeking out as a CHO.

Here’s the SDS for Ortho 3 in 1. It is hazardous per OSHA standards and listed as an eye irritant, with moderate damage and a skin irritant . You are supposed to avoid ingestion. Yet Ortho hasn’t tested the effect on humans as it’s meant for killing bugs. But you should avoid ingesting it. so the prudent person should wear goggles and gloves and London sleeves and pants and shoes for PPE. Just saying...

​

It would be be awful hard to convince a layman that use of this chemical product would not hurt the microbiome, getting rid of bugs and damaging the microbiome to boot.​

Pure Blend Pro Grow, Soil-and Pro Bloom. Let’s see whats in these products... here’s the laypersons SDS for all three And here’s the chemically oriented one. All three products contain dolomite, potassium carbonate, fish meal, seaweed extract, magnesium sulfate and humic acid In that order. Serious eye & moderate skin hazard and these are also acute dangers to aquatic creatures and Ingestion hazard... I guess all that’s not so good. Anyways there are some definite questions about the effect on the soil biome when using this stuff. Doesn’t say if dilute concentrations are aquatic hazards, so it’s assumed that it is hazardous to aquatic ecosystems at all concentrations unless otherwise indicated)
Goggles, gloves and long sleeves and pants and shoes for PPE and wash them all afterwards (Guess we should be a bit more careful when using this stuff)

By the way, the dolomite ingredient, which is listed first as the highest amount, ought to ever so slowly drive your soil pH up a bit every time you use these products...?

(This is a good reminder for me to order more humic acid.)

Miracle grow - SDS Here..... its just salty fertilizer with a bit of Sulphur and also a little Pyrethrins (nasty), plus a little Boric acid. Interesting to know about that... as I use this stuff about once every two months when I run out of fish fertilizer... It doesn’t appear to have any obvious hazards as it appears to have been run through the CPSC vs OSHA testing.

btw: its the MiracleGro for azaleas that has all the micronutrients

well, that’s the data. Do what you wish with it.

cheers
DSD sends
btw nice dense growth in your photos. I’m looking forward to seeing your progressions as you develop these into bonsai in 10 - 15 years

I am all about organic gardening principles also.
I am surrounded by the Amish community.Horse and buggies and all.They are like Pensylvanis Dutch or German?so to speak.They speak Dutch anyway...
I am very intreaged with Dutch hydroponic methods.Actually fungicide was banned by the Dutch Government in 2000?
I use their amino acid/bio-stimulant/increased calcium approach to fungicide.Increase calcium by 1000 x with Lglycine&Lglutamate making calcium ion channels on roots.Essentially makes calcium pectate in leaves instead of water and sucking insects and also mold spores cannot even penetrate the pectate in the leaf cells/stomata opens/pores.That is how Dutch government beat mold on there crops when they banned fungicide use.They also increased yeild and brix count was off the chart.......so my teacher has said anyway.

I was being a tad sarcastic with the miracle grow,botanicare and ortho pesticide....they are all owned by the same company here in America....kind of wack if you ask me.Because does not spindly low brix growth attract bugs and disease from excess luxery nitrogen?........yet they make blue salt juice.....one of the most primo and expensive organic hydro ferts.......and also pesticide.....kind of discusses me.We Americans are far behind the Dutch government when it comes to pesticides and fungicides.........

I love relaxing the Nature in the evening too with a good woman and bonsai...except I made a very small business with my indoor gig.

I am surrounded with organic and old world lifestyle from the marvelous Amish culture....it’s great!
Horse and buggies everywhere.......they do not even use electricity..!!!!!!!!!
So awesome........amazing and skilled hard workersThey are absolute MASTER organic gardeners!!!
I hear they do employ hdroponic methods to propogation too......when cultivating tobacco and such.Or propogating it?

Also the best people to get in touch with when you want fresh livestock to butcher...no fresher way to get meat! And cheaper!!!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Got caught in traffic behind one of them thar buggies on my bike leg during the Lanchester Triathlon! You’d think that would be pretty rare, but at the end of the race as we were comparing notes, lots of folks had the same experience!

Yep. The Dutch are simply awesome! One of these days our folks are gonna get smart, allocate a $100 million on the Fed side and send a couple hundred farmers from all states and another hundred grad students out to Wageningen University & Research Center for a couple years... and then foot the bill for a bunch of computerized greenhouse modules... to do multiple crop creation and that will change the face of America.
Cheers
DSD sends https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/holland-agriculture-sustainable-farming/

 

[leatherback]

.They are like Pensylvanis Dutch or German?so to speak.They speak Dutch anyway...

It is really odd that they are called Pensylvania Dutch. Because.. They do not speak Dutch! The funny "Dutch" = "From the Netherlands" in English. "Deutsch" = "German" in English. The Pensylvania Dutch speak something which resembles German more than anything..

Loads of things are banned now. Its getting hard to get rid of some diseases though!

We Americans are far behind the Dutch government when it comes to pesticides and fungicides.........

Was going to say..

send a couple hundred farmers from all states and another hundred grad students out to Wageningen University & Research Center for a couple years.

Which other country do you know that pooled all agriculture-related research in the country and put it into one research university focussed on 'green' sciences. In general, I get the feeling that appreciation for science in the Netherlands is relatively high, resulting in very good universities, certainly if you look at the size of the country (17M people, 7 universities in the top 100 of the world, with Wageningen around position 50)

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

You want to test the water in the pot, not the water that runs out, that's not in equilibrium.

That is why you have to do it carefully.

The Pour-Through Extraction Procedure: A Nutrient Management Tool for Nursery Crops | NC State Extension Publications

By routinely measuring the electrical conductivity (EC) and pH of growing media and irrigation water for container-grown nursery crops, growers can monitor nutrient availability and scout for problems. Learn how to use the pour-through extraction procedures as part of your nursery's quality...

content.ces.ncsu.edu

 

[Harunobu]

Got caught in traffic behind one of them thar buggies on my bike leg during the Lanchester Triathlon! You’d think that would be pretty rare, but at the end of the race as we were comparing notes, lots of folks had the same experience!

Yep. The Dutch are simply awesome! One of these days our folks are gonna get smart, allocate a $100 million on the Fed side and send a couple hundred farmers from all states and another hundred grad students out to Wageningen University & Research Center for a couple years... and then foot the bill for a bunch of computerized greenhouse modules... to do multiple crop creation and that will change the face of America.
Cheers
DSD sends https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2017/09/holland-agriculture-sustainable-farming/

+1 for promoting my university (though it is tiny, so not sure about those 100 grad students).

 

[leatherback]

my university

Another Wageninger?
I think we can do a bnut meetup in Wageningen soon, maybe during one of the Alumni days!

 

[fredman]

Well this is exiting. A bio stimulant that is added to bonsai soil. Maybe my dreams are busy coming true...
Falls right into the theme of this thread to.

 

[Anthony]

Reality -

Dust, dead roots, dead insects, bird poop, leaves = compost
[ yammadori = mountain stone, crevices, organics ]

So how long does your soil stay inorganic ?
How small are microbes ?

And if you use fermented oil seed meal ?
Good Day
Anthony

* @cmeg1 - you must look for more than lush leaves.

 

[cmeg1]

you must look for more than lush leaves.

+++

 

[sorce]

Does anyone know what temperatures these fungals are active in ?

I'm wondering because patterns are starting to emerge with collecting.
I think it is possible, the actual "correct" time to collect is when your fungals are active.
So correct seasons are in line with this.

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

I'm getting a kick out of this thread. After all the science has been thoroughly established that rocks are the very best media to grow bonsai, we see there may be some hiccups in the system that require expensive instruments to gauge the condition our condition is in. It gets better! Now we might need to buy ~probiotics~ (liquid fertilizer in small enough quantities to be expensive) to unfuck the media of choice.

Welcome to the Bonsai Circus... right over here is the first ride, The Devil's Road-to-Hell Roller-coaster. Two and one half hours long and only 25 cents. Step right up, Ladies and Gentlemen... get what you pay for.


Clearly, if you are growing a billion of something in a field or greenhouse or hydroponic system these new devices and materials are absolutely necessary and useful. I love reading and contemplating new growing science from the new hort Turks. But if you need this science to grow a few plants in your backyard or basement, then you've taken the theory of growing stuff in rocks across a bridge too far. (Looks like rocks aren't what they're cracked up to be,)

 

[leatherback]

Ah well.. I do not worry about my water. I just give them lots of it. It just rained? No problem. I can still water. No worries about roots drowning.
Happy I am not in full organics where you have to keep your trees out of the rain.
Note: I am from a a 200+ raindays a year part of the world, where average annual temperature is 50F. I love trees in a stable substrate that drains easily.

Rocks Rule.

 

[Anthony]

If you have problems growing ------- make it more difficult
If you have problems designing ----- make growing more difficult

That way you are not respondsible for failure.

 

[cmeg1]

Really,ah well.Me too.
My perlite even looks like akadama after drenching in humic acid
Stuffs awesome.....rocks rule