My 2nd bonsai, nursery Scots Pine I had to own. Taking it slow, design indecision.

[Boscology]

Hi and thanks for taking a peek!

This is my second tree meant for bonsai I got and also second from a nursery. I went in just planning on picking up some cool juniper material for the cheap but this one plant out of thousands just called to me. I bought it at the end of July and as you can expect from a new bonsai lunatic I just had to repot it and see what other secrets it could tell me.

It was in a #5 pot and this thing was rootbound like crazy. fortunately I found more of the thick trunk buried under some of the dirt but the thick root ball directly under it is about the size of a softball made up of roots the size of your thumb. As far as Nagiri, there is some there but not what one would call "pretty" and there are smaller rootsgoing above it etc (sorry I really should have taken pictures of this encounter it was not at all what I expected.). Because of this literal root-ball that I could not and did not want to saw apart the tree did not fit as expected in the three or four inch deep bonsai pot I had intended for it, so I put it in what was handy. In the repot I made sure to put some of the fungus caked white dirt from the bottom of the #5 and also what dirt was trapped in this ball of secrets so as not to rob it of the fungus it needed, and then just filled in the rest of the space with some perlite and pebbles mixed with the dirt ( I am worried it is holding too much moisture) but the brightness and the new growth and candling seems to say it is much happier now, maybe it was just really in need of a change.

I have since trimmed a couple branches that were just crossing over others and blocking sunlight, including a couple really large ones, used concave cutters but most cuts cause it to bleed sap in a way that I can only empathize with, so I take it slow. Winter is so close so I am pretty sure I should wait til spring to do more trimming (according to what I have seen) but I have a few questions or areas where I would love some insight.

~ Any thoughts on how you would design this? Just looking for more ideas, it would be cool to use some of the length of some of these branches but otherwise should I just wait til spring, candle trim, wait for back budding and then consider trimming?

~I had thought about maybe making many of them into rounded 90 degree angles with 2 turns on most or otherwise trying to curve many of them upwards to kind of give the shape of a "spade" a la suit on a deck of cards

~Apex problems. The top of the plant leaves this flat area which is slightly tilted with several branches jutting off in several directions. Should I pick an apex now out of one of these and push it up? Or do you you think at one point I would like to keeep several of these branches.

~Finally would you even worry about any wiring at this point? I am a bit worried about breaking off too many needles and stressing out this plant unnecesarily but once i find my direction I would like to slowly start heading there

I love all these little acorns I have on it, there are about 20, can I expect to keep getting these? For some reason I havent seen mention of it on what I have read about the Sylvestris.

Hey guys thanks for reading.
also, We live in a townhome so planting in the ground is not really an option for me now but pots on my cement patio are A-ok. My Sylvestris is an outside tree only coming in for a few pictures (sorry about the phone quality I will have better ones soon). Also I live in Minnesnowta so I am bracing for the cold winter I had thought of placing it near the house and patio divider giving it 2 walls to protect from some wind and I have even wondered if I should just rig up some sort of open topped wooden box if need be that I can keep snow out of or for further protection from the wind or just so that I can put some sort of insulation around this pot.

Be harsh.

 

[sorce]

Holy Sawgrass text!
Is Boscology Latin for Novelist!

Lol. Playing!

The base looks weird if it's a graft, and cool if it's not!
Commend the living! Good job.

Looks to be compact enough to get somewhere.

Someone should be along to answer some questions. .......

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[JudyB]

Hi Bosco and welcome. I hope someone here with Scots pine experience takes a look at this thread. I think this will be a good learning tree for you. I'm not sure about the base, didn't know that Scots were grafted trees. If this is a graft, it will probably always be problematic to the overall trees appearance. But the "acorns" (pine cones!) are super cool. I think it's the forming of these that takes the energy from the tree, not keeping them after the fact.

 

[Vance Wood]

Hi Bosco and welcome. I hope someone here with Scots pine experience takes a look at this thread. I think this will be a good learning tree for you. I'm not sure about the base, didn't know that Scots were grafted trees. If this is a graft, it will probably always be problematic to the overall trees appearance. But the "acorns" (pine cones!) are super cool. I think it's the forming of these that takes the energy from the tree, not keeping them after the fact.

Only certain cultivars are grafted, this is probably Bouvronensis. Scotts Pines are not common in the nursery trade except the grafted cultivars, other wise they tend to just be upright trees better represented in the landscape with Black Pine etc. The Mugo, it's close cousin, does reproduce favorable growth without grafting.

Your tree is a good tree, and worthy of working on. I would start by deciding on what you want to do with the crown. Then I would consider what lower branches I would want to keep making certain to eliminate one or the other of branches directly accros from each other. As with any tree you cannot as yet visualize a future, you should keep your pruning to a minimum so as to not lock yourself into some sort of design that, latter, you don't like.

 

[GrimLore]

Your tree is a good tree, and worthy of working on.

Like your thinking for certain and based on reading and viewing a LOT of your material I will be trying some Pines next Spring. I have a question that will help me and perhaps Boscology as well. He mentioned cones are forming everywhere and somehow with no experience I "think" pruning at that time would produce a LOT of sap, perhaps more then one could stop running easily. That being said is it true and if so when would be the best time to thin branches?

Grimmy

 

[Boscology]

Only certain cultivars are grafted, this is probably Bouvronensis. Scotts Pines are not common in the nursery trade except the grafted cultivars

Your tree is a good tree, and worthy of working on. I would start by deciding on what you want to do with the crown. Then I would consider what lower branches I would want to keep making certain to eliminate one or the other of branches directly accros from each other. As with any tree you cannot as yet visualize a future, you should keep your pruning to a minimum so as to not lock yourself into some sort of design that, latter, you don't like.

On looking closer and from what I have been thinking it really does look like a sort of graft I will continue to do research and try to learn more. I have read and watched everything I can about scots and I have not seen any of other people's with acorns so I wonder if its either a different species or not reproduceable.

Also as far as shaping yes there is a lot I want to do but I have heard different statements up to saying that you should only cut 1 large branch per yer. guess it makes more time for me to learn.

 

[Boscology]

Like your thinking for certain and based on reading and viewing a LOT of your material I will be trying some Pines next Spring. I have a question that will help me and perhaps Boscology as well. He mentioned cones are forming everywhere and somehow with no experience I "think" pruning at that time would produce a LOT of sap, perhaps more then one could stop running easily. That being said is it true and if so when would be the best time to thin branches?

Grimmy

Well from what I read it suggests cutting any substantial branches during the winter to to have it "clot" faster and no cut paste needed since the sap clots it. When trimming leave like an inch or 2 of the branch left, this also prevents excess bleeding.

 

[Stickroot]

On looking closer and from what I have been thinking it really does look like a sort of graft I will continue to do research and try to learn more. I have read and watched everything I can about scots and I have not seen any of other people's with acorns so I wonder if its either a different species or not reproduceable.

Also as far as shaping yes there is a lot I want to do but I have heard different statements up to saying that you should only cut 1 large branch per yer. guess it makes more time for me to learn.

Wow! Yes good book/ sawgrass text .
Big fat graft-o-max. Something to work with, graft or not!

And welcome !

 

[sorce]

little acorns

But the "acorns" (pine cones!) are super cool.

I have not seen any of other people's with acorns

Maybe if you plant them, it will become a grand Oak!
Lol.sorry. that's as harsh as I'll get!

Can we see more pictures of the graft?

Sorce

 

[Boscology]

got some quick pics, busy bonsai day thanks to a friend. the more I look at it yes there is that inch and a half long section the just seems like different bark but above it the bark closely resembles the sam at the base of the trunk. Did some more research after Vance Wood suggested "this is probably Bouvronensis" it certainly could be but the photos I saw had one slight difference: the acorns on the Bouvronensis seem to be open whereas mine are closed an solid. Anyways take it for what it is.

 

[Vance Wood]

A couple of things: One it probably is not Bouvronensis, but it most certianly is a grafted tree. Two: No one has said anything but it does bother me; those are Pine cones not Acorns. Acorns are from the Oak species and Pines all have Pine Cones.

 

[Boscology]

A couple of things: One it probably is not Bouvronensis, but it most certianly is a grafted tree. Two: No one has said anything but it does bother me; those are Pine cones not Acorns. Acorns are from the Oak species and Pines all have Pine Cones.

Hah that is very funny actually. I can't believe I made such a silly mistake. I know the difference but I guess just had acorns on the brain for some reason!

Mea Culpa~

 

[KennedyMarx]

Vance knows Scots pine. Maybe he'll chime in again with more information. I think he has suggested repotting them in the summer dormancy like he does mugos, but I'm not 100% on the timing.

I would get a pond basket. Barefoot half the rootball when you repot it. Bareroot and change the soil on the other half the next year. Work on reducing the whorls of branches to avoid forming any weird swelling. Think about how thick you want the trunk and whether or not you'll need a sacrifice to increase the girth.

 

[Smoke]

I am not well versed in the pine cultivars and their cousins. I do have many black pines I am working on, about twenty or so. What I can tell you is that I feel I am very knowledgeable in proportion. Others more versed with the species may have a better solution but so far I have not heard any yet, but I feel the branch structure for this trunk is already too coarse. Some of those branches are nearly the same size as the trunk. In looking up the trunk there is a large kinked section with no branching and then the upper third has branches that are on the verge of also being too large.
Maybe some could explain how one would go about using a tree like this and how one would proceed on its training. My time due to age is rather limited so I would not begin trying to work on a tree like this with its complex problems.

 

[Paradox]

I love scots pines. The one real issue with them is that they have rather loose bark that is very easy to knock off when handling the tree. It will take years for the bark to reform so be very careful handling it. Dont ever hold the trunk when repotting or lifting it from the pot. Lift by holding the lower branches near the trunk.

 

[Vance Wood]

I repot mine after the summer Solstice. The bark is fragile and should not be handled if you can avoid it. You have to start thinking about eliminating a good deal of branching and whoever told you that you can only remove one branch a year is misinformed. Look at some pictures of Pines and get a feel for the species. I can tell you to do this or do that but if you don't have an idea why it makes no sense. What branches you do cut off should be stubbed, meaning leaving at least a one inch stubb as opposed to cutting it flush. A flush cut can come after the stub has dried out.

 

[Boscology]

I repot mine after the summer Solstice. The bark is fragile and should not be handled if you can avoid it. You have to start thinking about eliminating a good deal of branching I can tell you to do this or do that but if you don't have an idea why it makes no sense.

What branches you do cut off should be stubbed, meaning leaving at least a one inch stubb as opposed to cutting it flush. A flush cut can come after the stub has dried out.

Yes I kind of am undecided I know 2 handlebar branches at the same level doesnt allow your eyes to travel up the tree and doesn't make for as visually stimulating of a tree (unfortunately I have 2 level of three branches at the same level. I could see myself going through the process of removing all but 1 branch on each of the lower levels while back budding my choice save branch on each of the bottom 2 levels. Or I could just get rid of both levels entirely and focus on the top and crown shaping The only worry of mine here would be that the taper of the trunk may not be interesting enough to have so much attention drawn to it and I would regret it later (also some sort of shari design could be considered).

The Apex and crown are a whole different situation I have to sort out and I am not sure just yet of what I will do there.

Cards on the table, Its my first season beginning to create bonsai. When I bought this part of what drew me to it was its round, full and its full look. I am kind of torn wondering if I should even try to make something that is "pretty" or just wire to add some shape to the branches, back bud, and work with what I have.

 

[Vance Wood]

Actually the taper on this one is not too bad. Just make sure that the top/apex is made of a side branch not the original apex branch. You can create taper by replacing portions of the trunk moving upward by side branches. You will also notice as you get into it that Scots Pine back bud profusely, but not knowing for sure which cultivar this particular tree is I am not sure what it will do.

 

[KennedyMarx]

Try to think long term. In two years are you going to think, "I really should have just done the work when I first got this," and regret it?

 

[Boscology]

Try to think long term. In two years are you going to think, "I really should have just done the work when I first got this," and regret it?

I hear ya, concave cutters do not have a ctrl-z function. I will keep thinking and try to decide. Actually one of the reasons I finally made the account here and quit lurking was because I was having trouble finding new relevant information about scots that I hadnt seen already. many are also much larger and essentially in a different kind of design phase if you could call it that.

Finally I wanted to actually ahve discussions like these because through some of the searching I have done I have frequently come across contradicting information and to someone trying to soak up all the information he can that can be kind of perplexing.