Mt Maple - Lift today or rest another year?

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Awesome, glad you swung by, this is what I rotate on all my conifers...except I usually omit the 2 acidic ferts for shimpaku...
often supplementing in ProTekt 0-0-3 with silicone to aid with transpiration, and Superthrive,(and K-L-N for newly potted)...

Miracle Gro or (generic 24-8-16)

MirAcid 30-10-10

Alaska fish fertilizer 5-1-1
Fish and Seaweed 2-3-1

Dyna Gro 7-9-5

Espoma Holly-Tone acidic 4-3-4
Plant Tone 5-3-3

Not in that order as I switch between using lower N during the hottest months
and every other week I use the higher N weather permitting.
I guess I need to rethink offering trees at all stages the same food though I really have nothing near finished
so I hope I'm not working against myself here too bad. Thing here to consider as well, this rotation applies
to my conifers and this is my 1st year getting back into maples.

When you say 12-1-4 is balanced to the needs of the tree, is that maples in general in an acid rain environment?
It looks like of all the foods I listed, the generic Miracle Gro is the closest is analysis doubling the concentration that I use.
Since Mothers Day is deemed our last frost chance, and the latest pre-emergence should be applied to the lawn
I figure the tree will be in green leaf and growing by then, why I suggested I'd begin feeding after frosts. Is that a fair assumption?

What I am trying to say, is that plants in general, all trees, orchids, and garden vegetables, year round consume nutrients in approximately the following ratio.

12-1-4

this 12-1-4 is the balanced formula trees NEED, not want, NEED.

if you complicate the idea with acid rain etc, the numbers would be different. But in a controlled environment, like what we provide for our bonsai, their metabolism consumes nutrients in this 12-1-4 ratio. The concentration will vary with the seasons, but not the ratio of relative concentration in use.

Any other formula is JUNK SCIENCE. see Michigan State University literature for references.

Any reference to high phosphorous fertilizer is jumping into a time machine, to 1880's London, and ignores the subsequent 140 years of agricultural and horticultural science.

The only reason there is a bonsai hobby at all anywhere in the world, given the poor formulation of most fertilizers used is that we water our trees frequently with water that no fertilizer has been added to. These flushings with clear water wash away the unnecessary excess nutrients, like phosphorous in the junk formulations from the 1880's. Trees generally are resilient, and will survive the mistreatment, if they are given sufficient ''plain water'', be it from hose, tap, municipal or well water or rain water to flush away the bulk of these poorly formulated fertilizers. A good rain storm will flush away a multitude of ''fertilizer sins''.

So throw away any fertilizer with more phosphorous than nitrogen. It can damage your trees if flushing is not adequate.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I like where this project is going @Japonicus very exciting!

 

[Japonicus]

What I am trying to say, is that plants in general, all trees, orchids, and garden vegetables, year round consume nutrients in approximately the following ratio.

12-1-4

this 12-1-4 is the balanced formula trees NEED, not want, NEED.

if you complicate the idea with acid rain etc, the numbers would be different. But in a controlled environment, like what we provide for our bonsai, their metabolism consumes nutrients in this 12-1-4 ratio. The concentration will vary with the seasons, but not the ratio of relative concentration in use.

Any other formula is JUNK SCIENCE. see Michigan State University literature for references.

Any reference to high phosphorous fertilizer is jumping into a time machine, to 1880's London, and ignores the subsequent 140 years of agricultural and horticultural science.

The only reason there is a bonsai hobby at all anywhere in the world, given the poor formulation of most fertilizers used is that we water our trees frequently with water that no fertilizer has been added to. These flushings with clear water wash away the unnecessary excess nutrients, like phosphorous in the junk formulations from the 1880's. Trees generally are resilient, and will survive the mistreatment, if they are given sufficient ''plain water'', be it from hose, tap, municipal or well water or rain water to flush away the bulk of these poorly formulated fertilizers. A good rain storm will flush away a multitude of ''fertilizer sins''.

So throw away any fertilizer with more phosphorous than nitrogen. It can damage your trees if flushing is not adequate.

Hi Leo. Could you recommend a couple of 12-1-4 (or 1/2 or double the analysis) readily available to purchase foods?
I see the Bonsai Pro and Neptune Fish and Seaweed fertilizers I use have a touch higher P than N both sold for the hobby.

 

[Japonicus]

I like where this project is going @Japonicus very exciting!

Haha, thanks Derek! I have no idea what I'm doing
After losing a couple maples in pots years ago, I went with a select few in ground, this being one of those.
Unfortunately, the Seigen next to this one at the end of the 1st post here, was one of those that I failed with,
driving me to give up potted maples, and plant this. Also have a Moon maple for a large bonsai I want to lift
and if I fail yet again with this, I will leave it in the ground or just move it to a better location with late day shade.

How low @derek7745 would YOU cut this back next year? Eliminate all the green branching?
or chase it back pushing buds lower than current viable branches over the next decade, then start with branch development?
I don't think I'm quite that committed nearing retirement age.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

How low @derek7745 would YOU cut this back next year?

I honestly have no experience with chops or pruning big branches

as far as health goes, it seems like people prune maples much harder than i would ever feel comfortable doing. if this were my tree, i would leave it alone all year this year. More foliage = more root growth in fall. Next spring(2020), i’d prune it hard to suit aesthetic plans. Spring (2022) i’d look at the roots again only if the foliage bounced back in summer 2020 and 2021.

as far as appearance goes, if i was in your position i would be hoping that either @Brian Van Fleet or
@markyscott chime in, since they seem to have a special talent for visualizing the trunk line(s) of trees from in this stage of their development. This tree has a lot of potential, but a lot of it needs to go and i don’t have the experience or eye to help with that

After losing a couple maples in pots years ago, I went with a select few in ground, this being one of those.
Unfortunately, the Seigen next to this one at the end of the 1st post here, was one of those that I failed with, driving me to give up potted maples,

do you know why they have been dying on you? are you around to water everyday during the summer? That’s really the only requirement for *survival* in a pot. The rest is aesthetic

 

[Japonicus]

I honestly have no experience with chops or pruning big branches

as far as health goes, it seems like people prune maples much harder than i would ever feel comfortable doing. if this were my tree, i would leave it alone all year this year. More foliage = more root growth in fall. Next spring(2020), i’d prune it hard to suit aesthetic plans. Spring (2022) i’d look at the roots again only if the foliage bounced back in summer 2020 and 2021.

as far as appearance goes, if i was in your position i would be hoping that either @Brian Van Fleet or
@markyscott chime in, since they seem to have a special talent for visualizing the trunk line(s) of trees from in this stage of their development. This tree has a lot of potential, but a lot of it needs to go and i don’t have the experience or eye to help with that



do you know why they have been dying on you? are you around to water everyday during the summer? That’s really the only requirement for *survival* in a pot. The rest is aesthetic

Hey Derek, thanks for the reply.
I do intend to leave it alone this year as anything I did will be removed later anyway. Agreed on keeping foliage.
Unfortunately no, IDK why, and probably will be revisiting a disaster or two.
It's been so long since I kept any maples in pots, but if I kept them on my porch
well then heat, wind and Sun exposure for sure. The Sun rots everything including us.
If it were bitter cold, I really have no idea how I over wintered them save for healing into the ground probably.
It is not terribly uncommon to have -15ºF here, and below and near zero temps for several days in a given week.
However it's been since 1977-78 Winter since I saw the Ohio River freeze over here locally.
Don't have the pics, but we walked half way across the bridge to Chesapeake, Oh. to take it all in.
My favourite Winter woe here was flooding followed by a deep freeze. When the water receded all the tree trunks
had large ice plates at the same level as far as the water had reached. Pretty cool visual

I remember as though it happened yesterday, I told my wife to be careful with the garden hose when she washed her car
and not damage the Seigen...she ripped the largest lower outer curve branch off with the hose...not even a jin to be.
That I remember LOL! She broke the lowest branch I had jinned down into a shari on my Ole No.2 juniper this year too.
Our property is just too small.

 

[Japonicus]

Last tree out of the "cave", I cut it back to get it out and start reduction.

How much further SHOULD I cut this back.
Before:

After:

There's a very straight trunk in the centre I think I'll be removing .................................^


This cut back was mostly just to be able to handle the heavy mass with some help, still more to go...

 

[Japonicus]

@BobbyLane how much further would you recommend I cut this back
and do you have any ideas on which trunks to fully remove at this time?

 

[BobbyLane]

@BobbyLane how much further would you recommend I cut this back
and do you have any ideas on which trunks to fully remove at this time?

i wouldnt fully remove any if youre going for a broom canopy. i would do this if it was mine, thats based on the nodes i can see from the photos though. at it pops new buds i may reduce slightly more in places.


the branch that forks closer to the middle, you might want to use that as the highest part of the crown.
this is another tree in my files, maple by Arthur joura, bit similar cuts were made by looks of it. hope that helps

 

[Hartinez]

That’s a great tree and will be a wonderful broom/clump. I’d say @BobbyLane suggestions is great. But I could also see each cutback being about the same length from the trunk.

 

[Japonicus]

Thanks Bobby

at it pops new buds i may reduce slightly more in places.

I appreciate what you're saying.
Perhaps this could be a bit of a safe cut making allowance for die back inside that node should it go that way.
See the far right branch where you'd cut it, there's a couple of visible nodes below that cut.

the branch that forks closer to the middle, you might want to use that as the highest part of the crown.

Yes, that is my plan as there's some natural movement to it there, but was kind of stumped, where to reduce to
All 90º cuts, no beveling? I did notice bleeding, had watered that morning, but the cut paste stopped that immediately.
I'm ready to start with these cuts tomorrow. Thanks again for chiming in.

 

[Japonicus]

That’s a great tree and will be a wonderful broom/clump. I’d say @BobbyLane suggestions is great. But I could also see each cutback being about the same length from the trunk.

Thanks Hartinez! Most of the character in this trunk is from years of neglect.
I'm most concerned with cutting the roots back in series to get it into a pot eventually.
I have no experience with such, and seeing @BobbyLane s great examples of his maples
I'm sure I will utterly fail at making this into such a respectable bonsai, but I will learn some techniques
along the way, and have fun working on it, ...once I can lift it by myself.
Perhaps more equal cuts will follow in the series of cut backs that will ensue in its' future.

 

[henrykiser]

the branch that forks closer to the middle, you might want to use that as the highest part of the crown.
this is another tree in my files, maple by Arthur joura, bit similar cuts were made by looks of it. hope that helps

Thought that was a beautiful bonsai painting til I clicked it.

Japonicus you can do it! You can see the future form of this maple taking shape...excited to see pics when it leafs out...

 

[Mike Westervelt]

i wouldnt fully remove any if youre going for a broom canopy. i would do this if it was mine, thats based on the nodes i can see from the photos though. at it pops new buds i may reduce slightly more in places.
View attachment 290747

the branch that forks closer to the middle, you might want to use that as the highest part of the crown.
this is another tree in my files, maple by Arthur joura, bit similar cuts were made by looks of it. hope that helps

"Do it, Do it now"

 

[Japonicus]

Thought that was a beautiful bonsai painting til I clicked it.

Japonicus you can do it! You can see the future form of this maple taking shape...excited to see pics when it leafs out...

Thanks me too.

i wouldnt fully remove any if youre going for a broom canopy. i would do this if it was mine, thats based on the nodes i can see from the photos though. at it pops new buds i may reduce slightly more in places.
View attachment 290747

the branch that forks closer to the middle, you might want to use that as the highest part of the crown.
this is another tree in my files, maple by Arthur joura, bit similar cuts were made by looks of it. hope that helps

Alrighty, I followed your idea fairly close.
If, or when, I cut back a little further, is that next year, or after the 1st push hardens off this year?

Hope I didn't lighten these up too much, pretty cloudy today ahead of more rain.
Got the Coronas out...

Really feel like I need to get in there and carve out the decay a bit and seal it ^ any thoughts on that?
Edit - the decay is where a pile of leaves had caught from the winds and rotted in the crotch. No idea how for long.

 

[Japonicus]

at it pops new buds i may reduce slightly more in places.

You already answered that question as to when to cut back further yesterday, sorry.
Thing is, I'm not a deciduous bonsai-ist at all. I am at my worst with indoor bonsai.
I suppose I rub off buds early that will cluster growth too close, as well as in wrong direction,
and allow 2 or 3 buds to grow on till I decide which will be the best leader, then allow the new leader to grow unchecked
then cut back again next Spring?

 

[Japonicus]

Last year I was able to move the tree and box into protection for the Winter shown above.
This year it's going to have to fin for itself in a weakened state.
I can't lift it with a back injury, and the growth did not extend at all this year.
Just a lousy ridiculous looking crumpled up leaf all over.
Below is the full extent of this years growth.

60ºF yesterday, and tomorrows high 20-22º with single digit windchills Low Christmas night forecasted to be around 9ºF now.
We are in a Winter storm warning, so once the rains stop and snow is piling up I should be able to get my wife to put a few
shovel fulls of snow around the box and atop the soil to insulate it.

 

[HorseloverFat]

I just found this thread, I REEEEALLY like the character of this bad mammer-jammer! And am looking forward to watching it “pay back” in beauty....

I was gonna “like” or “love” posts through the whole thread, but didn’t want a blister!

 

[Japonicus]

I just found this thread, I REEEEALLY like the character of this bad mammer-jammer! And am looking forward to watching it “pay back” in beauty....

I was gonna “like” or “love” posts through the whole thread, but didn’t want a blister!

LOL blisters
If it makes it. I’m worried.
Makes me wish I had gone a little more conifer on this reducing in stages
rather than all at once. There was just a handful of leaves all year.
Thought I snapped a pic of it but can’t find it.

 

[Japonicus]

I had a helper get my maple off the table (which is close to a breezeway between 2 buildings)
move the maple down to the ground, and covered it up with a few shovels of snow, then some leaves
and more snow. I can sleep a bit easier. Oh in the pictures it is on the ground by the A/C unit in from of the horse and EWP.