Mirai blog on watering

[Baku1875]

The thing is that most of us here, unless retired, have no chance of doing this. So we rely on automated systems, friends and family, or just luck when it comes to watering the trees. There is no way I am going to be able to go home every few hours (a 30 min drive from work) to glance at the trees to water the ones that need it. I have a system that can run multiple zones that I plan on setting up by amount of watering needed. That way I can run one zone for 2x 3min, and another 3x 2min, and a separate for the in-ground, etc... I don't see any shortcoming now, since most of my trees are in baby stages, but it will certainly need to be tweaked for someone with a lot of trees in different stages of development.

"When I see or hear “watering is the hardest thing in bonsai” for me it doesn’t translate into “watering is a mystery” it translates to “watering is a lot of work because you must check every pot with your hand, take into account foliage, roots, and upcoming weather”. In other words, watering is straightforward, but toil-heavy."

Yep. It's work. You can't learn if you don't put in an effort to observe and hand check trees. That effort lessens when you begin to understand the signs trees need water. Even then, they can be occasionally deceptive in some circumstances.

@rockm yeah that was what I was about to say. As a total novice, last year I was constantly checking my soils with a thin bamboo skewer because I was new to the inorganic bonsai soil types, and wanted to get my watering right on my nursery pot organic mixes. I was also tired of losing trees, especially since I was beginning to invest artistic time and effort into the hobby.

Since I 'learned to swim' with my current soil mixes of choice in my climate, I don't need to micromanage as much as I did last year.

The other logical discovery that I read on here (not sure if it was @Shibui or someone else) is that soil composition choices need to consider the lowest water demand period and lowest evaporation rate of the year in order to prevent rot, because you can always water heavily or add top dressing to compensate for heavy water demand in late spring and early summer, but you cant remove water from a soggy pot in winter without a dangerous emergency repot, or using micromanagement techniques like heating pad+ventilation.....It's easier to simply get your soil mix right and water MORE for spring and early summer...

Things do not need to be that complicated. I think Ryan Neil likes to complicate things more than necessary, giving a veneer of "scientificism" to his explanations. Don't get me wrong, I deeply admire his trees, his artistry and his craftmanship. I just don't always buy his explanations as to what he does what he does. In any case, I have been following more the Walter Pall school of thought with regards of watering: If you use a fast draining, mostly inorganic substrate, you should water often and wet the whole plant. You should also fertilize accordingly, being aware that in this kind of substrate, fertilizer does get washed off with every watering. Now, that does not mean one doesn't evaluate each tree, but it is also true that an open, inorganic substrate makes it very difficult to overwater. The risk lays, in my opinion, in underwatering when you use this kind of substrate.

I have also begun to drift in this philosophical direction as well. When I discovered Mirai and Ryan's detailed 'scientificism', I was initially fascinated, but upon digging a bit deeper into Walter Pall's 'keep it simple' approach I have found that there is a subtle genius and practicality behind Pall which speaks volumes without having to speak volumes..... I find it to be a more manageable and less cumbersome philosophy for me to apply.

That being said, despite Ryan's verbosity, it's great to see and hear a high level practitioner tackling and shedding light on the less often discussed details, and providing logical solutions. The idea is to take the practical tidbits of value that each star-level practitioner has to offer and determine the point of diminishing returns for one's own goals.

 

[Scorpius]

I use Bonsai Jack substrate. I pay attention to weather conditions. Dew point, humidity, temperature and wind conditions along with cloud cover all play into my watering schedule.

 

[Kanorin]

There are levels to the game. And while I don’t have the technique and capability to do everything that a professional bonsai garden can do, it’s nice to be aware of those upper levels and try to use some of that knowledge. Very tricky to give good catch-all advice though when watering is so dependent on climate and soils and species and pot sizes.

 

[BrianBay9]

I am curious about the probes that check ph/water moisture and if anyone has experience of there effectiveness in bonsai containers. Also I was looking and see that there are sensors that can check oxygen levels in soil. I know the tree can show us it’s health and that alone indicates a lot. But I was curious if these sensors have been used by anyone and their experience with them?

Those work OK with VERY fine soil particle size. They were designed for potting soil. They do not work well with coarse, free flowing bonsai soil.

 

[MaciekA]

@Maiden69 brings up a really good point regarding the compatibility of certain horticultural demands with our lifestyles. I think about this a lot since it goes far beyond just watering. For me it also brings up questions like "what if I had to move back to the old country? the trees can't come with" and so on.

The trees are a major anchor once you have put a lot of effort into them. The tricky part that I can already see approaching on the horizon is that as trees mature out of a more autopilot-friendly phase and get into shallow bonsai pots and so on, the leash between grower and tree only tightens. When I'm at my teacher's garden, I can see where this is all going. I will have to scale it down to a small handful of trees in the very long term even if my plan is to spend almost all my time close to my garden week-to-week, year-to-year. And then I'll still be faced with the reality of watering continuity.

The bigger sobering thought is that maybe certain specific horticultural and aesthetic goals are simply unattainable under certain lifestyles or life circumstances.

A trivially-true example is an apartment dweller with no outdoor balcony. A highly-ramified ponderosa is just not in the cards for that grower. Similarly for me, if I had to commute to a far away office, my thirsty cottonwoods would die in the first heat wave of the year. I have no interest in growing sub-par cottonwoods in a super shady spot (my only other option) just to accomodate the work day. My goal is a specific leaf characteristic that they only have in full blazing sun. So that specific cottonwood result would become unattainable for me. I'd have to then limit myself to the least thirsty pines to make that work in my hot-bright grow space.

Maybe this is another part of "watering is the hardest thing"

 

[rockm]

I am curious about the probes that check ph/water moisture and if anyone has experience of there effectiveness in bonsai containers. Also I was looking and see that there are sensors that can check oxygen levels in soil. I know the tree can show us it’s health and that alone indicates a lot. But I was curious if these sensors have been used by anyone and their experience with them?

This comes up ALL THE TIME...Water/moisture meters are ridiculously unreliable and mostly useless with bonsai because of the nature of bonsai soil. Moisture meters measure electronic activity between soil particles, the more activity, the more water is present. Since bonsai soil is designed to be vastly more open and porous than potting soil, the meters almost always measure "dry." That means you're going to be overwatering, possibly harming your tree.

There are no substitutes or real effective shortcuts to this.

 

[LeatherTree23]

I am curious about the probes that check ph/water moisture and if anyone has experience of there effectiveness in bonsai containers. Also I was looking and see that there are sensors that can check oxygen levels in soil. I know the tree can show us it’s health and that alone indicates a lot. But I was curious if these sensors have been used by anyone and their experience with them?

As @rockm said, they’re sorta useless for water monitoring. But I do appreciate the pH and soil temp features on mine. But they really work best for dirt.

 

[Kadebe]

.....
This lines up with Jonas Dupuich's lecture on conifers and a recent study on growth rates of foliage vs roots. If anyone can find the source, I would love to read it, ive searched for h.h. witt, lvg bad zwischenahn, but havent found the source study yet.

View attachment 490003

The compilation of so much excellent scientific and experience based info from bonsai practitioners these days is fantastic stuff. As much as folks complain about how 'bad' things are these days, we are definitely in a golden age of information exchange for those who seek it.

ROOT GROWTH OF TREES AS INFLUENCED BY PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL SOILFACTORS

ISHS International Symposium Growing Media and Plant Nutrition in Horticulture ROOT GROWTH OF TREES AS INFLUENCED BY PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL SOILFACTORS

www.actahort.org

 

[leatherback]

soil composition choices need to consider the lowest water demand period and lowest evaporation rate of the year in order to prevent rot, because you can always water heavily or add top dressing to compensate for heavy water demand in late spring and early summer, but you cant remove water from a soggy pot in winter

This is what I base my mixes on, as I cannot shelter all my trees from rain. With 184 precipitation days that means my pots DRAIN.

 

[Baku1875]

ROOT GROWTH OF TREES AS INFLUENCED BY PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL SOILFACTORS

ISHS International Symposium Growing Media and Plant Nutrition in Horticulture ROOT GROWTH OF TREES AS INFLUENCED BY PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL SOILFACTORS

www.actahort.org

awesome!

"Every tree species shows a certain annual rhythm of root length growth. Intensive growth begins in the period of bud swelling. Maximum root growth occurs in May/June for deciduous trees and in July/August for conifers. A second lower maximum is found in July/August for deciduous trees and in May/June for conifers. These periods are the best planting and fertilizing periods in nurseries and landscape plantings.
Root density increases with rising nutrient supply a low nutrient status promotes only growth of the main roots. Branching depend on the nitrogen supply. Roots are distributed in a manner typical for the species."

So this is some golden stuff, we're in peak root growth for deciduous....I should wrap up my bougie collecting soon lol.

 

[Matte91]

 

[Baku1875]

This is what I base my mixes on, as I cannot shelter all my trees from rain. With 184 precipitation days that means my pots DRAIN.

we used to get that many precipitation days down here, but the climate definitely changed in Miami. It could have simply been a strong la niña in the past 3 years dominating the cycle.

I remember in the late 90s and early 2000s, it was a monsoon non stop from May to December. Regardless, it's good advice to calibrate soil for wet winter, and compensate with lots of water and shade cloth for spring and summer. I think many people, myself included, miss that detail as novices, then have to scramble and do extra emergency work to save trees.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

One thing I have noticed already this spring is my trees are drying out faster than in the past. This is especially true for those I potted in Boon’s mix last year, akadama dries out faster than my usual pumice/haydite/bark mix. It really changes how I water them compared to the old mix and our temps are still in the low to mid 70s. I now check 3-4 times each day and may have to reactivate my sprinkler/drip system at this rate.

 

[Baku1875]

One thing I have noticed already this spring is my trees are drying out faster than in the past. This is especially true for those I potted in Boon’s mix last year, akadama dries out faster than my usual pumice/haydite/bark mix. It really changes how I water them compared to the old mix and our temps are still in the low to mid 70s. I now check 3-4 times each day and may have to reactivate my sprinkler/drip system at this rate.

this is interesting, my experience is contrary, akadama holds way more moisture than pumice and even bark. But that could be relative humidity related. In my area relative humidity can be close to 100% all season long, and that renders clay based soils as permanently wet.

The porosity of pumice in a high humidity climate makes it less likely to stay wet vs akadama, but I have no experience with akadama in drier climates.

from a quick glance, asheville NC has half the humidity of miami at any given day of the year, so it's possible that the composition of akadama could render it fast drying and potentially hydrophobic if watering is missed too often or not thorough enough. I'm generally an 'anti akadama' guy, because I lost trees when I used it, but every region is different.

Is your particle size equal to what you were using for pumice/haydite/bark?
and all of that being said, pumice/haydite/bark is a pretty good mix....

 

[It's Kev]

Had a brief shower of rain at least once a day here for 2 weeks now so I didn't have to water.

I love how my trees look much better after actual rain than with the shit I usually give them.

I'll give the blog a good look after I've Englished at my morning brats

 

[Baku1875]

Had a brief shower of rain at least once a day here for 2 weeks now so I didn't have to water.

I love how my trees look much better after actual rain than with the shit I usually give them.

I'll give the blog a good look after I've Englished at my morning brats

it's the quality of the rainwater, and even nitrogen balance and pH

 

[Shogun610]

I water my trees based on many factors and perform that act as needed or whatever the temperature, placement in backyard , humidity , tree , soil composition, weather , sunlight etc. influences that need .
It’s been super humid lately and hazy due to fires up in western Canada, even with temperatures rising, and Ive only needed to water some trees as needed this week.
I will be likely watering in morning and after work coming week as temperatures rise even more into June. So many factors and backyard climate compared to generalizations. It’s not rocket science but does require experience and trial / error. And a basic diagnostic go/ no go decision tree approach

 

[WNC Bonsai]

this is interesting, my experience is contrary, akadama holds way more moisture than pumice and even bark. But that could be relative humidity related. In my area relative humidity can be close to 100% all season long, and that renders clay based soils as permanently wet.

The porosity of pumice in a high humidity climate makes it less likely to stay wet vs akadama, but I have no experience with akadama in drier climates.

from a quick glance, asheville NC has half the humidity of miami at any given day of the year, so it's possible that the composition of akadama could render it fast drying and potentially hydrophobic if watering is missed too often or not thorough enough. I'm generally an 'anti akadama' guy, because I lost trees when I used it, but every region is different.

Is your particle size equal to what you were using for pumice/haydite/bark?
and all of that being said, pumice/haydite/bark is a pretty good mix....

I was surprised too as I had always heard akadama soils would hold more water. But the stuff drains well and dries out fast. I potted up a hawthorn, trident, procumbens, and JBP in standard Boon’s mix as a test last spring. Makes me wonder if I have too much bark in my old mix. I used a high fired double red line hard akadama so maybe that is a factor. It has been through only one winter so may break down some in future years and more water.

 

[It's Kev]

it's the quality of the rainwater, and even nitrogen balance and pH

perhaps i could draw water from the river occasionally, all of the fish crap and none of the chlorine

 

[IzzyG]

perhaps i could draw water from the river occasionally, all of the fish crap and none of the chlorine

Could always get a rain barrel!