MABS 2016 - April 15-17

[Paradox]

With comments like that, how did the ficus tree get BIS?

I was also surprised that the ficus got BIS. Both Walter and Jim liked the tree very much but I didnt get the impression that it was BIS to them.

 

[MACH5]

With comments like that, how did the ficus tree get BIS?

Juried shows are anything but predictable.

 

[Adair M]

@Adair M. Are bonsai supposed to look like trees or some manufactured, manicured copy of a tree?
.

Or are bonsai an artist's impression of what trees are supposed to be?


On it's face, Walter's position that we should be copying nature is just as limiting and "cookie cutter" as he says that we are doing by trying to copy the Japanese.


Michelangelo sculpted David. A copy of a model human, right? Well, David's hands are disproportionally large. Why did Michelangelo do that? He most certainly did it on purpose. Why?

He was an Artist. Making David's hands larger than life was his way of expressing that God used David's hands with the slingshot to defeat Golliath. The Hands of God.

When we style bonsai, are we not artists?

 

[A Random User]

The funny part about this discussion is that every time someone says something doesn't actually happen in nature, or that trees don't look a certain way, next thing we know, someone post a picture of a tree growing in nature just like how it is not supposed to grow.

Kinda makes one wonder why anyone would put themselves out on a limb like this? Nature always does what it wants to do... and an individual's experience of the world cannot possibly be as vast as all that there is in the world, Right?

Kinda like these pictures of Ancient Junipers growing in Lebanon... Look an awful lot like Broccoli to me, what do you think? Perhaps Walter would like to do a Google search? Only took me 30 seconds to find these...

This is the problem when you start laying out definitive positions... kinda reminds me of a tree's don't grow like this discussion we had a short time back regarding Kathy.

Ps... sorry Walter, I still love your work!

 

[johng]

On it's face, Walter's position that we should be copying nature is just as limiting and "cookie cutter" as he says that we are doing by trying to copy the Japanese.

You are not hearing what Walter is saying if you think he is suggesting that you copy nature...if you are going to argue against him, you should at least understand his position. You should look for his description of naturalistic vs natural.

This is also why it is very hard to generalize "Japanese" bonsai....many outstanding artists with a variety of different styles....but generally charaterized by more abstract notions of trees.

As for Walter's critique of your tree....broccili, old style, no longer in fashion, etc, etc....And before you say it...we all know about the problems with people's choice awards

 

[johng]

When we style bonsai, are we not artists?

Absolutely not! but that is a personal opinion!

 

[sorce]

Interesting discussion......
Though...I came for more pictures..
And there's more....of the same trees!

Adairs tree sure aint broccoli.

I understand bending down.
But also like the idea of opening them up so you don't have to!

So.....g'head with the more pictures!

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

You are not hearing what Walter is saying if you think he is suggesting that you copy nature...if you are going to argue against him, you should at least understand his position. You should look for his description of naturalistic vs natural.

This is also why it is very hard to generalize "Japanese" bonsai....many outstanding artists with a variety of different styles....but generally charaterized by more abstract notions of trees.

As for Walter's critique of your tree....broccili, old style, no longer in fashion, etc, etc....And before you say it...we all know about the problems with people's choice awards

Thanks, John. So, he's saying that my tree is a broccoli tree. That's fine. I'm not changing it's character.

What I was wondering by the "broccoli" reference was if it was a description of the pads in general, or a description of the density of the pads. I was thinking he was referring to the density. I have seen juniper foliage so tight that light can't penetrate thru the pads. I thought that was what he was referring to.

But, it appears he was referring to the formation of the pads in general.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[Don Blackmond]

These are good discussions if for no other reason than to demonstrate that people have opinions that differ and solid reasons for their opinions.
Each person has his/her own personal likes/dislikes, and who is to say one person's likes are correct and another person's contrary likes are incorrect. This is especially true when judging such divergent species of trees: here, you are comparing a ficus, larch, crab and shimpaku = like comparing apples, lemons, bananas and kiwi, right? Then you throw in the old caveat that a flaw, broken rule, or deviation from standard is suddenly a cherished characteristic (Crabapple: Kobayashi "said that the tree appeared a bit off balance but he said this fact made it special."). Its like shooting at a moving target, and really comes down to knowing your judges and their personal preferences. And, of course, this does not even touch on the dynamics involved in Peoples' Choice Awards.....

Imo, one of the best parts of attending shows is to find out what other people (bystander to professional) think about the trees they see. What sticks out to them? Which bonsai is best and why do they think that? Its fascinating. Take it for what its worth, and don't be offended or hurt if what you believe differs.

 

[johng]

Imo, one of the best parts of attending shows is to find out what other people (bystander to professional) think about the trees they see. What sticks out to them? Which bonsai is best and why do they think that? Its fascinating. Take it for what its worth, and don't be offended or hurt if what you believe differs.

Agreed!!! Another interesting but often challenging task is to approach viewing trees in a show by identifying what you like about each tree instead of what you dislike. Limit yourself to just one "nice moss"

 

[Nybonsai12]

Which tree won people's choice?

 

[Adair M]

Which tree won people's choice?

John Kirby's Three Point display of Shimpaku and Chojubai.

 

[Adair M]

These are good discussions if for no other reason than to demonstrate that people have opinions that differ and solid reasons for their opinions.
Each person has his/her own personal likes/dislikes, and who is to say one person's likes are correct and another person's contrary likes are incorrect. This is especially true when judging such divergent species of trees: here, you are comparing a ficus, larch, crab and shimpaku = like comparing apples, lemons, bananas and kiwi, right? Then you throw in the old caveat that a flaw, broken rule, or deviation from standard is suddenly a cherished characteristic (Crabapple: Kobayashi "said that the tree appeared a bit off balance but he said this fact made it special."). Its like shooting at a moving target, and really comes down to knowing your judges and their personal preferences. And, of course, this does not even touch on the dynamics involved in Peoples' Choice Awards.....

Imo, one of the best parts of attending shows is to find out what other people (bystander to professional) think about the trees they see. What sticks out to them? Which bonsai is best and why do they think that? Its fascinating. Take it for what its worth, and don't be offended or hurt if what you believe differs.

Indeed this is a good discussion!

There is a danger of reading too much into a comment like Kobayahi's off balance remark. Some would read this as if they now need to make all their trees "off balance" to be any good!

Kinda like saying that because a beautiful model has a "beauty mark" mole on her cheek, everyone should strive to have a mole!

And don't forget that bonsai are forever changing. They grow. Some parts die back. That one distinguishing feature may not be there next year!

 

[Nybonsai12]

John Kirby's Three Point display of Shimpaku and Chojubai.

the people knew better than the judges...

 

[Andrew Robson]

Hmm, I have some strong feelings about this. I understand that they are, however, my own personal feelings, and everyone is entitled their own.

@Adair MYes, those Kokufu-ten trees are beautiful, but are they realistic? Can you show me any wild tree in nature that even comes close to how those look?
No you can't. Wild trees aren't manicured, they don't conform to rules or style.

They don't look like real trees. That is what Walter is saying. Isn't bonsai about trees? Isn't that the point? Are bonsai supposed to look like trees or some manufactured, manicured copy of a tree?

First of all, who ever said that bonsai need to be realistic representations? I can't think of any source, but if you can please share. I can easily argue with this preposition, with the first lengthy work of fiction in Japanese. “A [full-size] tree that is left growing in its natural state is a crude thing. It is only when it is kept close to human beings who fashion it with loving care that its shape and style acquire the ability to move one."

Secondly, the Japanese also will train garden trees to make them appear older than they really are. See attachments 1 & 2 for example. Isn't this what we are doing with bonsai? Also don't we prune garden trees in America (and Europe I suppose) to make them appear than how they naturally want to grow?

Finally, I'm going to use an analogy from my good friend John Kirby. He so intelligently compared it to Hokusai’s Great Wave off Kanazawa (Attachment 3). All who admire Hokusai’s famous wave are instantly transported to an ocean setting of crashing waves. As Kirby wrote, “You know what you are looking at, even though you have never seen it presented as it is.” Although The Great Wave off Kanagawa isn’t an exact realistic depiction of what a wave truly looks like, it alludes the mind into thinking that its a true representation of a wave, and more importantly it transports us to a different scene than the one in which we stand appreciating it. This isn't just a factor in Japanese Art, as Adair alluded to. Do Monet's water lilies (Attachment 4) accurately represent what waterlilies realistically look like???

@Adair MHe isnt the only one that is challenging this paradigm. Other very experienced bonsai professionals are also looking toward a more naturalistic style for bonsai.

There is a stark difference between nuance to a tradition and someone just wanting to be unique. In fact, my teacher just posted a tree to his blog ( https://crataegus.com/2016/04/20/bunjin-2-lodgepole-pine/ ) that he is training in a nontraditional way (attachment 5). If you look at the reason behind it though, its that the tree doesn't need to be styled in a traditional manner because its not a traditional tree. He says in his book, “Bonsai is an art of reticence. We carefully enchance a tree, rather than risk obliterating it something special with too much technique. When only what must be done is done, we approach the highest level of the art.”

In my mind, there is a fine line between artistically grounded nuance and being unique just to do something different than the mainstream.

 

[A Random User]

Hmm, I have some strong feelings about this. I understand that they are, however, my own personal feelings, and everyone is entitled their own.



First of all, who ever said that bonsai need to be realistic representations? I can't think of any source, but if you can please share. I can easily argue with this preposition, with the first lengthy work of fiction in Japanese. “A [full-size] tree that is left growing in its natural state is a crude thing. It is only when it is kept close to human beings who fashion it with loving care that its shape and style acquire the ability to move one."

Secondly, the Japanese also will train garden trees to make them appear older than they really are. See attachments 1 & 2 for example. Isn't this what we are doing with bonsai? Also don't we prune garden trees in America (and Europe I suppose) to make them appear than how they naturally want to grow?

Finally, I'm going to use an analogy from my good friend John Kirby. He so intelligently compared it to Hokusai’s Great Wave off Kanazawa (Attachment 3). All who admire Hokusai’s famous wave are instantly transported to an ocean setting of crashing waves. As Kirby wrote, “You know what you are looking at, even though you have never seen it presented as it is.” Although The Great Wave off Kanagawa isn’t an exact realistic depiction of what a wave truly looks like, it alludes the mind into thinking that its a true representation of a wave, and more importantly it transports us to a different scene than the one in which we stand appreciating it. This isn't just a factor in Japanese Art, as Adair alluded to. Do Monet's water lilies (Attachment 4) accurately represent what waterlilies realistically look like???



There is a stark difference between nuance to a tradition and someone just wanting to be unique. In fact, my teacher just posted a tree to his blog ( https://crataegus.com/2016/04/20/bunjin-2-lodgepole-pine/ ) that he is training in a nontraditional way (attachment 5). If you look at the reason behind it though, its that the tree doesn't need to be styled in a traditional manner because its not a traditional tree. He says in his book, “Bonsai is an art of reticence. We carefully enchance a tree, rather than risk obliterating it something special with too much technique. When only what must be done is done, we approach the highest level of the art.”

In my mind, there is a fine line between artistically grounded nuance and being unique just to do something different than the mainstream.

On a a side note, what is so interesting about the great wave is how beautiful and serene the image is, it is such a "pretty" image... with very little clue to the mass devastation that is about to take place... which is why perhaps it has become such an icon of Japanese art... it really does portray life, and captures the moment of what probably did happen... folks probably stood around in awe, observing such a feat and it wasn't sadly until it was to late that they thought about their safety from the coming Tsunami.

Back to the subject...

My own personal views is that Walter is correct... in so far as I too would rather see a bit more separation between foliage and branching, more negative spacing...

My reasoning behind this is that in all actuality it adds more depth and layers to the tree, giving it more dimension. Which is what any Artist seeks to add to their work. Why? Because is shows that as a person you are much more complicated than a typical stereotype. Right?, we are not just cut out pieces of cardboard. ..

However, what I disagree with which Walter has been on a crusade over lately, is that rather than explaining the reasoning as I have done, that in all actuality he is trying to improve and add this dimension and depth to not only an artist work, but also the art overall... he has resorted instead to stereotypes of broccoli and Japanese helmets of foliage. In an attempt to try and distance himself and what he believes is wrong with bonsai... what he sees is un-natural, when in fact as the pictures I have posted show, is not the case... in all actuality junipers can have helmets of foliage in nature.

I would suggest instead, that he concentrate more on the artistic visual aspects... and instead show how that just because something can, or cannot happen in nature, does not mean that artistically it is appealing, or at the least cannot be improved.

Like I mentioned earlier, I love his work... but I am also capable of appreciating helmets of foliage, or even stylized trees if done right... I have more dimensions than art can only be one or the other. I also understand that not everyone likes the same thing.

The issue I think Walter is running into is that he falling into the same trap as the people who say bonsai has to have helmets of foliage... they don't, nor do they have to be realistic... they can be what ever the artist wants them to be. That by putting boundaries on art, it only stifles the art and an artist's expression. That he is no more right, than others are wrong... just opinions.

Hopefully, he changes this... I value his opinion, and think that if instead he showed how folks work might be better opening up a tree, so we can see the work hidden behind all the foliage, as to not look as though you just masked a bunch of shotty branching with foliage, it would better improve the quality of the tree. As well perhaps he would not run the risk of the constant battles, and the further division.

 

[Paradox]

Hmm, I have some strong feelings about this. I understand that they are, however, my own personal feelings, and everyone is entitled their own.



First of all, who ever said that bonsai need to be realistic representations? I can't think of any source, but if you can please share. I can easily argue with this preposition, with the first lengthy work of fiction in Japanese. “A [full-size] tree that is left growing in its natural state is a crude thing. It is only when it is kept close to human beings who fashion it with loving care that its shape and style acquire the ability to move one."

Secondly, the Japanese also will train garden trees to make them appear older than they really are. See attachments 1 & 2 for example. Isn't this what we are doing with bonsai? Also don't we prune garden trees in America (and Europe I suppose) to make them appear than how they naturally want to grow?

You're getting into the bonsai is art arguement and I would like to try to not confuse the issue further with that if we can.

Let me ask you this: how would you categorize Walter's trees? Are the bonsai or are they something else?

I don't know the exact history, but I got the impression that he was once told that his trees were not bonsai because they don't adhere to the rules established by the Japanese and others and they don't look like bonsai (IE they aren't green helmets).

His arguement is what is bonsai exactly supposed to be? Are they supposed to be uniform representations of trees that adhere to an idealized set of man made rules or are they supposed to be small trees.

 

[A Random User]

Man, Andrew... if you have to try and explain why Bonsai is an Art and that your not the one confused, I would suggest you not bother commenting further!

You have much better things you could be doing...

 

[sorce]

Damn...

Just redundancy.

I thought someone was gonna post the MAD pics!

Damn.

Sorce

 

[whfarro]

A couple of more pics.

Shohin maple of John Romano




Fellow BBS member Peter Sobel's JP over rock in a nice antique Chinese container.