Japanese Maple Defoliation

[AndyJ]

Hey folks.

Quick question about Japanese Maple defoliation. What is the best practice for managing new growth that comes back after defoliation? I know it will be weaker than the first, main flush of growth and we generally pinch this first flush as soon as the first set of leaves have set. What do you do with growth post defoliation - treat it the same and pinch it? Or just let it grow?

Thanks all!

 

[BobbyLane]

the smart thing to do is let it grow, because you weakened the tree by defoliating. and if your tree is in development then defoliation isnt going to benefit it anyway.
lets see a pic

 

[BobbyLane]

i think defoliation has become a bit of a 'fad' for most, you know like buying your first tree and wanting to repot it straight away because it needs to be in bonsai soil.
people see others defoliating and do the same just for the sake of it. defoliation doesnt benefit a tree in development. if your defoliating a maple because you want smaller leaves, when j maples have small leaves already and reduce very easily without the need for defoliating, youre just doing it for the sake of it. likely weakening the tree in the process

 

[Shibui]

There is this myth that defoliating will automatically produce smaller leaves. Not so! There is this myth that all bonsai should be defoliated several times every year. Not so!
Defoliation does have some uses but does not directly reduce leaf size.
Defoliation should not be used on developing trees. It serves very little purpose but sets growth back considerably so defeats the objective.

Look for alternative measures for developing trees.
Use defoliation selectively on well established trees to control vigour and to encourage inner shoots on dense branches.
Defoliation can be used to encourage ramification on nearly finished trees but proper pruning is usually more effective.

Know what you want and when to implement it. There are few magic bullets in bonsai.

 

[AndyJ]

I feel like I’ve well and truly had my knuckles rapped for using a technique recommended by bonsai professionals and the good folks on BonsaiNut! Who asked for a magic bullet?!

My tree is in development. I am not trying to reduce the leaf size. The reason I defoliated was because my Arakawa had long, leggy branches with “pom-pom” ramification on the ends of the branches. In full leaf, it looked ok, but the winter image wasn‘t great. By removing all the leaves on the ramified branches, the idea was to encourage lots of growth on the inner parts of the tree - effectively getting those inner nodes to wake up; in the future, I hopeto cut back to these inner shoots and build better branching from the inside.

The tree has been defoliated and, exactly as I hoped, back buds have burst out from all the inner nodes. Result! I’m just not sure if I should leave this new growth or pinch it.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I don’t fully defoliate JM anymore. it’s too hard on them, and doesn’t really reduce internodes or leaf size. If you’re trying to shorten internodes, nip the extending buds in the early spring. If you’re trying to strengthen interior buds, partial defoliate, by removing one of each pair of leaves around this time of year. Then I keep what grows, and wire it when it has started to harden off.

 

[AndyJ]

Brilliant! Thanks Brian. So I’ll just leave all the new shoots alone and wire them when they reach a reasonable length.

 

[Shibui]

I feel like I’ve well and truly had my knuckles rapped for using a technique recommended by bonsai professionals and the good folks on BonsaiNut! Who asked for a magic bullet?!

My tree is in development. I am not trying to reduce the leaf size. The reason I defoliated was because my Arakawa had long, leggy branches with “pom-pom” ramification on the ends of the branches. In full leaf, it looked ok, but the winter image wasn‘t great. By removing all the leaves on the ramified branches, the idea was to encourage lots of growth on the inner parts of the tree - effectively getting those inner nodes to wake up; in the future, I hopeto cut back to these inner shoots and build better branching from the inside.

The tree has been defoliated and, exactly as I hoped, back buds have burst out from all the inner nodes. Result! I’m just not sure if I should leave this new growth or pinch it.

Apologies. I did not interpret all this from the original post. Amazing how much clearer a little further explanation makes the issue. No photos gives very little real info.
If you really have long leggy branches with pompom foliage it is likely they do not have taper either so no amount of side shoots will fix that. Branch movement? You obviously know but have not shared that either. how can we be expected to offer meaningful advice with limited info?

You have new growth where it is needed. Great! Now you need to monitor that growth. Long internodes are of no use to a bonsai grower. I have not found pinching to restrain the internodes much. I have found that where 2 or more shoots grow close together one is likely to be strong and have long intenodes. The lower ones are likely to have short growth and should be cherished. Leave both for a few weeks/months then remove the strong ones entirely. Make new branches from those restricted, short internode shoots.
If you only have long internode shoots cut them all off. New ones will grow and far more likely to be shorter internodes and thus useful.
Pruning is likely to give the same result as you have. The later in the season you prune the more likely short internode shoots will be. I have found that pruning is far more likely to give desired results.

Once again There is no magic one size fits all magic bullet. I use a number of techniques and approaches depending on many different variables. That's just how it is.

 

[Owen Reich]

Defoliation techniques for Japanese maples can be applied to trees in development to push growth towards the inside of the tree. Bjorn’s BAoJ series covers it in a video (don’t recall number) there are plenty of progression articles as well.

The most important thing to understand about species specific techniques is the when and why you are applying them. If you have rough idea of what style you want and final height / width in mind, your “start” and “end” goals become much more reasonable to think about. Just because a bonsai book or the like is published, does not mean it’s good. After reading The Black Pine Master Steve Pilacik’s book, I promptly threw it away. I was slightly confused and very angry thinking of the number of trees affected by that book.

My teacher had me fully defoliate a Japanese maple semicascade project four times a year. It was also in a clay pot with mounds of biogold. This full defoliation was followed each time by bud and branch selection to create the canopy. Have photos somewhere.

 

[BobbyLane]

I feel like I’ve well and truly had my knuckles rapped for using a technique recommended by bonsai professionals and the good folks on BonsaiNut! Who asked for a magic bullet?!

My tree is in development. I am not trying to reduce the leaf size. The reason I defoliated was because my Arakawa had long, leggy branches with “pom-pom” ramification on the ends of the branches. In full leaf, it looked ok, but the winter image wasn‘t great. By removing all the leaves on the ramified branches, the idea was to encourage lots of growth on the inner parts of the tree - effectively getting those inner nodes to wake up; in the future, I hopeto cut back to these inner shoots and build better branching from the inside.

The tree has been defoliated and, exactly as I hoped, back buds have burst out from all the inner nodes. Result! I’m just not sure if I should leave this new growth or pinch it.

Defoliation 101

It’s that time of year. Leaves are coming out all over our trees and it’s time to start answering questions about whether or not to cut them all off. So let’s dive in to one of the most misunderstood techniques in bonsai. What does defoliation do and what does it not do? When should we do...

www.bonsainut.com

I have a a tree that has grown long and leggy. It lacks interior growth. I need to get some back budding in order to have young shoots to cut back to In order to make the tree more compact.

I would not defoliate, leaf thin or shoot prune. I would let the growing tips extend and I would let the branch get strong and healthy. Once the branch is very strong, you can get backbudding. Sometimes it happens without my intervention at all as a healthy branch will just generate back buds. Sometimes you can get back budding when you cut back a strongly growing branch. But I’d let the branch grow until either I had backbudding or until I felt as though it would be highly likely to make them when I cut back.,

Peter warren says something along the same lines in his recent series on defoliation.

maybe both these resources skipped you by or you couldnt be bothered to sift through it all

 

[Forsoothe!]

Close, but no cigar. Defoliation is used on trees that are the finished size to increase backbudding and just incidentally, the increased number of buds dividing the amount of energy available in the root system grow smaller leaves. It is counter-productive for any other use. Tip pruning where just the primary growing leaf may be removed anytime to limit outer growth and encourage back-budding.
Defoliation is the wrong way to drive foliage back to shorten branches. Shortening long branches is done at the end of the growing season by shortening the branches back to a set of buds. Going back to zero buds often means losing the branch. Cutting off leaves means losing the energy they would have generated. Cutting off wood in autumn just reduces the size of the wood, and the buds removed will be replace by spring and doesn't sacrifice very much growth.

 

[BobbyLane]

is this the tree in question

it looks weak.
at this stage i would be looking to branch thickening, which means letting grow until branches are desired thickness and cutting back hard.

anyway, the deed is done. this tree needs to be left well alone now

hopefully with the resources ive left on the thread you will read up and understand a little more.

i showed you two of my katsuras recently, both have longer nodes than i would like because of heavy feeding and vigorous growth. ive never once thought to defoliate. but theyve been pruned and theyve back budded.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I don’t fully defoliate JM anymore. it’s too hard on them, and doesn’t really reduce internodes or leaf size. If you’re trying to shorten internodes, nip the extending buds in the early spring. If you’re trying to strengthen interior buds, partial defoliate, by removing one of each pair of leaves around this time of year. Then I keep what grows, and wire it when it has started to harden off.

I've always heard not to defoliate JM...I reckon that is the reason for that statement. Thanks for clarification.

 

[BobbyLane]

I've always heard not to defoliate JM...I reckon that is the reason for that statement. Thanks for clarification.

well thats the thing, many maple growers defoliate religiously so there is still lots of confusion around it all for a lot of folk. i think Markyscott and Peter warren recently nailed it in regards to the whys and hows etc. but as i said, the 'fad' will probably continue for most.

 

[AndyJ]

I'm a bit surprised to have received the wrath of some contributors on here today. I'm relatively new to bonsai (only a few years in) and have received massive help from people on here. I don't understand the reactions today.

I had what I thought was an easy question, confirmed by @Brian Van Fleet quick reply - thanks Brian. Using phrases like "you couldnt be bothered to sift through it all" is disappointing as is "You obviously know but have not shared that either. how can we be expected to offer meaningful advice with limited info?"

I thought this was somewhere I could come to get good advice, not ridiculed for missing another's post or video or criticised for not providing information that I missed.

Lesson learned - thanks gents. I will continue to post and hopefully meet the expected criteria

 

[ConorDash]

I'm a bit surprised to have received the wrath of some contributors on here today. I'm relatively new to bonsai (only a few years in) and have received massive help from people on here. I don't understand the reactions today.

I had what I thought was an easy question, confirmed by @Brian Van Fleet quick reply - thanks Brian. Using phrases like "you couldnt be bothered to sift through it all" is disappointing as is "You obviously know but have not shared that either. how can we be expected to offer meaningful advice with limited info?"

I thought this was somewhere I could come to get good advice, not ridiculed for missing another's post or video or criticised for not providing information that I missed.

Lesson learned - thanks gents. I will continue to post and hopefully meet the expected criteria

Ah don’t take it to heart. Word for word I’ve had the exact same sort of...somewhat discouraging sentence said to me by Bobby, but I try to just shake it off. I’ve actually not pointed out how it sounds, before.

You are doing fine. Post questions, I would recommend always where possible to post pics too, it’s a must. Some are gonna sound negative, but they don’t mean to at all (like Bobby, he didn’t mean anything negative by his sentence... I think!). And there will be some they do mean to be negative and think they are helping but they aren’t.
Take the bits you want from posts, leave the rest behind!

 

[AlainK]

Unwanted defoliation :

We had about two weeks of very hot, dry weather, like we can have in the best years in late July early August. The month of May was actually the hottest month in recorded climate since the end of the 19th century.

But climate will be great again.



I kept this maple in too small a pot for too long. It was in full sun in the afternoon and didn't like it. Almost all the leaves were scorched, so I removed them. Ten days later, new leaves pushed out :

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Unwanted defoliation :

We had about two weeks of very hot, dry weather, like we can have in the best years in late July early August. The month of May was actually the hottest month in recorded climate since the end of the 19th century.

But climate will be great again.



I kept this maple in too small a pot for too long. It was in full sun in the afternoon and didn't like it. Almost all the leaves were scorched, so I removed them. Ten days later, new leaves pushed out :

View attachment 307284

That’s a two fur. New leaves and a nice new pot?
Cheers
DSD sends

 

[BobbyLane]

my apologies guys if ive come off that way.
i probably spend more time on the forum than most so not much passes me by.
i tend to check whats new almost daily, even if not logging in.
so there is no way i would have missed the defoliation101 thread, i tend to gobble up threads that would benefit me on my journey.
in regards to the Peter warren series i recently posted a check it out thread in the hope others could benefit from it as i myself have been.

i have this bad habit of assuming people are lazy. when the thread title popped up i thought hold on, there was just an entire 101 defoliation thread covering this subject in great detail, i thought how could this guy even miss that, either he's lazy or just couldnt be bothered to go through it all.
when problably he just missed it, i realise we all use the forum differently, some lead hectic lives and might not have much time to check in on a regular basis. so come on and immedietly want quick fire questions answered. and thats what the forum is for.

i have this way of thinking, if i can do it then so should you be, if im putting in the effort to sift through valuable information, you should be doing this too, so why arent you...again, we all use the forum or even the internet differently.


btw Conar, i know Andy from weetrees, he's actually been around longer than you have.

i have this other way of thinking, that if i dont see someone putting in the effort or at least as much effort as i do when needing to find information i wont help out as much.
in my earlier years i spent a lot of time researching and rarely asked questions.
even here, i was a lurker for around 3 years, rarely asked a single question, got all the inspiration and info from sifting.
posted progress threads when i was more confident.
i shouldnt expect others to learn in the same way, everyone wants it quick n fast now, often the attitude is well why should i search for it when i can just ask a quick fire question.

i feel i already contribute a lot by posting progress threads, i did this on weetrees too.
i again realise not everyone has the time to absorb information in that way.

so again my apologies.

 

[AndyJ]

Hey Bobby.

Unfortunately for me, my main issue is that I suffer from degenerative disc disease meaning I survive the day by a lot of medication including nerve blockers, morphine patches and morphine medicine. A good day for me is often putting one foot in front of another - somedays I can’t I even step outside my back door and may not touch a bonsai tree for days. I try to do as much research on line as I can but my medication leaves me feeling nauseated and dizzy - neither good conditions for spending a long time on my iPad - hence I often ask quick questions. Another reason why I am not in a bonsai club. I’m on a waiting list to have an operation - it should have been this year but that is now unlikely due to coronavirus so I expect to be on medication for at least another 12 months. (You may have noticed I posted earlier this year to ask for advice to prep my trees if I had been having the op this year).

I try to read big posts such as Scott’s excellent Ebihara Maples but something as big as this, while containing tons of useful information, can take me a couple of weeks - meaning by the time I’m finished, I’ve often forgotten what I read at the start!

You have taught me a lot with the posts you have made on here and I hope to keep learning from you and others. But please, don’t assume I can consume the internet or its data in the same way you do. It’s just never going to happen like that for me. Let’s not fall out.

Andy