It depends...

[Adair M]

Sorce, I know you mean well, but you are talking about things you have no knowledge of, nor experience with.

First of all Boon has been doing bonsai 30 maybe 35 years? He travels all around the country working on clients trees. Has been for years. He grows trees from seed, from cuttings, and layers. He doesn’t collect trees because he has a bad back (from a car accident when he was a teen. He got hit by a car while he was riding a bike. Almost died!). He gets collected trees freshly collected and gives them a start.

People come to him and ask to be his apprentice. He rarely takes any, but has arranged for several to become apprentices in Japan.

If you were to sit with him and Page thru some Kokofu books, he can point out trees that he has worked on at some time in the past. After his apprenticeship was over and he had returned to the US, he used to return to Japan to help prepare trees for showing.

Can one man know it all? No, Boon admits he is still learning. He also says he has learned from many teachers. But all are of the same “family”.

Bonsai in Japan is a family business. Apprentices who study under a master become part of that master’s “family”. Shinji Suzuki was once an apprentice of Kimura. When Shinzi’s son was old enough, he, too, apprenticed under Kimura. They have a similiar style. Boon sent Michael Hagedorn, Tyler Sherard, and Matt Reel to apprentice under Shinji.

Now, you may have noticed that Bjorn has a different style. When he styles pads, they are absolutely flat on the bottom. He studied under a different master. Owen went there, too. Different family of bonsai artists than the Kimura/Suzuki family.

Different ways of doing things. Just like Boon and Kathy Shaner wire differently.

 

[0soyoung]

I have never met a bonsai person face to face yet.

How do you know?

I don't run around telling everyone I encounter that I ha

 

[Adair M]

How do you know?

I don't run around telling everyone I encounter that I ha

You don’t?

 

[just.wing.it]

How do you know?

I don't run around telling everyone I encounter that I ha

One time, my wife and I were out at dinner with her friend and friend's potential new boyfriend... sitting outside on a nice summer day.
I commented on some huge old tree there, not expecting any response from anyone, as usual...most of the time when I say something about a tree people look at it for one second, make a look on their face like they're contemplating something briefly, then go back to what they were doing/saying.
But the guy suddenly popped into life and said some fact about the tree, to which I added something else...
He said, "yeah, I like plants."
I said, "oh yeah...?.. I'm into trees and plants too."
I thought his next question was gonna be something about cannabis, but he said, "you don't do bonsai, do you?"
I smiled and said, "well I try...still new to it."

Then he basically got so excited, he could barely stay seated and began rambling on and on about his past trials and tribulations in bonsai, said he quit for now, but might try again....

I never saw him again, can't remember his name either, seemed like an ok guy....not her type I guess...

That was the only time I ever randomly met someone who "does bonsai"....it was weird.

 

[0soyoung]

You don’t?

Nope.
No one runs up to me on the street and says anything like, "Hi, I have bonsai!" or "Hi, I am a bonsai person!"
Conversely, I do not run around saying anything like, "Hi, I have bonsai! How about you?"

So, my point is, that many people one encounters may be 'bonsai people' but they don't "wear it on their sleeves", so to speak. There may well be lots of closet 'bonsai people'. So how does @Underdog know?

 

[John in Toledo]

I just read everybody's ways and try to sift through it myself to get a balanced mix. (soil @JudyB ) I have never met a bonsai person face to face yet.

Where you at? I just so happen to have a face!

 

[Underdog]

I'm an hour east of Columbus. Nearest club is Columbus. Been wanting to go but...
I've asked in local nursarys and the local Master Gardeners ect but I get a blank stare.
Most think a Bonsai is a species...
So I should have said I've never met a known bonsai person and talked about it. Much less been schooled. And I've only seen a handful of bonsai in person. I guess I should get out more. LOL
While I try to learn the "right" way to do things, I have to dump it all thru the soil sifter and pick something that makes sense to me. Is this the right way? It depends...
My garden has been making me smile the last couple years.

 

[John in Toledo]

I'm an hour east of Columbus. Nearest club is Columbus

Well Toledo is 2.5 north.
I think there is a club just north of the border here.
Connecting is not an impossibility.

 

[Anthony]

Sifu,

remember an apprentice is paid by the teacher.
A student pays the teacher.

I am sure those guys are paying to learn, yes ?

Bonsai is about a Designed shape.
Observe trees in nature and extract the best qualities.
Put back together by memory and you have a painting that becomes a Tree
called Bonsai.

If you develop the ability to create pleasing shapes that are
also healthy, then you have it.

Nature is the best teacher for Design, Man you go to for techniques.
Refinement ...................

Well that's what I heard -------- Jackie Chan [ Forbidden Kingdom ]
Good Day
Anthony

 

[River's Edge]

Still, do some research and find consistency.

For example: If you like Ryan Neil’s work, subscribe to his website and videos. Learn which of his students post blogs and follow them. Ryan was a Kimura student. Research Kimura. Learn to wire like he does. And how Ryan does. Make friends with other Ryan students. Organize Study Groups where a couple of like minded people can get together and support each other.

Meanwhile, if you find someone who takes a different approach to bonsai, it’s ok to ignore them! Or at least while you are learning the basics of your teacher’s approach.

A bit of an example: as all of you know I’m an SoB, Student of Boon. The Atlanta Bonsai Society brings in a variety of bonsai artists during the year to give demos, workshops, and critiques. At one meeting Kathy Shaner was giving a demo on a neglected shimpaku, and I offered to help her clean it up. ( Get rid of weak and dead foliage.). I did this while she was working deadwood on the other side of the tree. Then when it came to wiring, she told me to wire a couple branches on one side while she wired on the other. Well, Kathy wires very differently than Boon. Kathy wires very loose! Hardly touches the branch at all. I wire so that the wire just barely touches the branch. So, after I completed my wiring, she told me it was too tight, so I didn’t argue with her, I didn’t try to copy her style of wiring, I just stopped wiring and went to a different task: cleaning the underside of the pads to remove downward hanging foliage.

Kathy’s wiring style is pretty much unique to her. I don’t know of any other Masters who do it her way.
I do know she has lots of students and followers.

Now, i think it would have been very possible for someone to have gotten very confused about wiring trying to do both Kathy’s way, and Boon’s way. Both artists are very successful. As are their students. But they take a very different approach to a fundamental bonsai skill: wiring.

So, I let Kathy have her say about how to wire that tree, I just didn’t do it. Just as several years ago Watren Hill told me to decandle a Japanese Black Pine in October. I didn’t do that either!

Both of these famous bonsai Masters told me to do something very much contrary from what Boon was teaching me. I chose to ignore what they said and stick with Boon’s program.

I am also a Student of Boon, since 2010. I have completed his intensive program and continue to travel to his studio for additional studies and to attend the BIB Show. I am fortunate to have also taken intensive training with Michael Hagedorn, Matt Reel and Bobby Curttwright. They have all studied with Shinji Suzuki and share similar approaches in fundamentals but very different personal styles.
Boon works with native collected trees from North America, not just japanese species and is constantly learning and refining his trade. His students reflect this in their work and teaching as well. His students are also working with collected and nursery grown material. In fact, the first thing Boon asks a new student is " what type of trees do you like to work with?". This allows him to share additional resources and teaching to suit the individual student not just the regular program.
It has been very much an eye opener for me to see other trained masters show up at Boon's over the years to work and study alongside Boon and his students. I can recall one two week period at Boon's when several other fully trained masters from across the United States were mixed in at various times with the students learning and working together. The best memory i have of that time, was my observation of how well they respected each other and how much they were willing to assist the students. It was easy to see what they thought of Boon's methods simply by the fact they chose to come and join in even though their training was from Masters different from Boon's.
Yes, one of the major advantages is working with the highest level of refined trees. It is easier to understand the training when you can see and work with that level of tree.
The biggest reward of working with a great teacher like Boon involves their level of discipline and knowledge as well as their willingness to continue learning from and respecting others.
There are those who can and do, There are a few who can, do and teach.
We are fortunate to have a lot of great Bonsai resources and teachers in North America and worldwide in this technological age. Great ideas are great ideas wherever they are found.
I find it hard to understand the level of disrespect shown on this forum from time to time. Not sure how, if at all, it is in the best interest of the Bonsai community.

 

[Anthony]

Frank,

Bonsai fits into that realm of a useless talent,

"We grow our trees for Beauty, not Produce or Lumber "

is an old statement from I believe the 1960;s and pretty much sums it up.

Unlike painting or sculpture which can stay in a museum and not need to
be nurtured, a tree grows and changes.
So you find yourself tending lovingly to a white elephant.

So what if you master Health and Design, it does nothing for John Public.

Even the philosophy we use is different to the one put forward by the Japanese.
We use the growing and caring for trees for Ideas, Mental Relaxation, Physical
Exercise and not for Exhibition or Prizes. [ and yes we did exhibit in the early 90]s
until fear of theft became too strong ]
Which is how it was in the ancient days of China.

Thus we have a ceiling limit for purchasing an effort / a mallsai - 300.00TT which
is around 50.00 US, but 1 TT$ spends like 1 US$.

It is easy to admire a Beautifull effort, but all these terms like - Master- really the
way the Japanese teach and behave, the term -- Gardener- would more likely be
applicable.
Did you not read Koybiashi's [ spelling ? ] statement about how much money he wanted to make,
the fame etc, and how after making it $$, he became all philosophical.
Or what one Bnut saw at, I believe his residence -------- a shed of dead trees.

The words --- Bonsai are the playthings of the Rich ---- ring through.

I will always love tending to the trees, hand watering, hand fertilising, keeping them
Healthy, but I will not pretend that I am doing something great.
It has been almost 40 years of love from seed/seedling.
With more natives being found.
Good Day
Anthony

Ancient Trinidadian Chinese saying ---------- the Chinese will never teach you everything.

In other words to protect their income, only an apprentice married into the family
will get it all.
A student is a threat to personal income.
After all, someone has to take over the business and tend to the Master.

 

[Adair M]

I am also a Student of Boon, since 2010. I have completed his intensive program and continue to travel to his studio for additional studies and to attend the BIB Show. I am fortunate to have also taken intensive training with Michael Hagedorn, Matt Reel and Bobby Curttwright. They have all studied with Shinji Suzuki and share similar approaches in fundamentals but very different personal styles.
Boon works with native collected trees from North America, not just japanese species and is constantly learning and refining his trade. His students reflect this in their work and teaching as well. His students are also working with collected and nursery grown material. In fact, the first thing Boon asks a new student is " what type of trees do you like to work with?". This allows him to share additional resources and teaching to suit the individual student not just the regular program.
It has been very much an eye opener for me to see other trained masters show up at Boon's over the years to work and study alongside Boon and his students. I can recall one two week period at Boon's when several other fully trained masters from across the United States were mixed in at various times with the students learning and working together. The best memory i have of that time, was my observation of how well they respected each other and how much they were willing to assist the students. It was easy to see what they thought of Boon's methods simply by the fact they chose to come and join in even though their training was from Masters different from Boon's.
Yes, one of the major advantages is working with the highest level of refined trees. It is easier to understand the training when you can see and work with that level of tree.
The biggest reward of working with a great teacher like Boon involves their level of discipline and knowledge as well as their willingness to continue learning from and respecting others.
There are those who can and do, There are a few who can, do and teach.
We are fortunate to have a lot of great Bonsai resources and teachers in North America and worldwide in this technological age. Great ideas are great ideas wherever they are found.
I find it hard to understand the level of disrespect shown on this forum from time to time. Not sure how, if at all, it is in the best interest of the Bonsai community.

Excellent post, Frank!

I think I was there that week you speak of. It was amazing to have all that talent gathered together at one place.

 

[JudyB]

I find it hard to understand the level of disrespect shown on this forum from time to time. Not sure how, if at all, it is in the best interest of the Bonsai community.

I think that respectful discussion can be good for the community at large. But some people will never be able to loose their preconceptions and so it will always be that way unfortunately.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I find it hard to understand the level of disrespect shown on this forum from time to time. Not sure how, if at all, it is in the best interest of the Bonsai community.

Nothing irks me more...than one showing disrespect to ones like Mr. Walter Pall and others with which we are blessed they share there knowledge with us.

I think that respectful discussion can be good for the community at large. But some people will never be able to loose their preconceptions and so it will always be that way unfortunately.

You make a valid point...but, sometimes it's just one so headstrong they refuse to see any other options. Like if they agree, or ignore even...then they are admitting their own way is wrong.

I find I have little tolerance for ones who don't appreciate Mr.Palls time he shares anything with us here. Or others...who disrespect ones who have had years of experience. Even if you don't agree...you don't have to be obnoxious...which in the past we have seen. I must say...I feel that the forum has lightened in such posts like that. Though we still have a few...but overall...not as bad as when I first joined.

Still call this place home...I have went to a few groups to see what they have to offer...but overall. This forum has more to offer all around especially with the archives.

 

[sorce]

know you mean well, but you are talking about things you have no knowledge of, nor experience with.

All I spoke of here, is something I have supreme knowledge of....and 38 years of experience with
MYSELF.
What I said is merely how I keep myself from getting stuck under the tutelage of one man.

I didn't bring up Boon once. Yet your reply to my comment was entirely about Boon.

So shall we investigate where this may have come from?

When I think this and post it in that other thread...

Both Boon and Walter create good trees and are dedicated to their craft.

Which is to say...let's not put men and their methods against each other, lets use logic, reason, and all our knowledge about the men and methods, to come to the best possible solution for our fellow nut.

Why do you feel it necessary to post this in response.

Sorce, this isn’t a Boon vs Walter battle

Um...yes...I already said that, but you went on to squash the use of reason and logic to figure the best path for our fellow Nut and made it a battle. Boon Vs. Walter or all the Japanese Masters VS Walter....

You...labeled it a battle. A negative It was not.

And here...

But a teacher is one person and one person can't know everything.

Where "teacher" meant "teacher" because if I meant Boon, I would have said Boon.
You agree...

Can one man know it all? No,

But then go on Rambling as if by teacher I meant Boon.

So what does this mean to us?

Just proves my initial point that if you put all your eggs into one teacher basket....

You are limiting yourself.

You have spent so much of your life now, defending a man against a threat that was never there....

You have limited yourself.

But please don't Use what is your Authority, as clearly stuck under the tutelage of one man, to try and change the meaning of things I say.

It doesn't serve us, our trees, or our hunger to learn in any fashion.

Opposite.

It makes you look like a Fucking Cry Baby Moron Stacey Douchebag who reads shit that was never there!

Welcome to Crazy!

@JudyB

Its sort of semantics....
If I spend 20 years growing trees in the ground or nursery soil....
Then sell them to someone who pots them into APL.. .
I was doing "bonsai", but only if I type, "pre" in front of it.

Really, I was just going with the Truth that Adair brought to the table which is...
The Japanese don't use our stock, or peatish Nursery Soil.

So if I am to do my "Pre Bonsai" MOST successfully...
I should seek a teacher who understands this....
I never said BOON wasn't one...contrary, Adair already knows I know HBR is one of the leading methods that bridge this gap.

Which is why I am all the more amazed that he feels the need to defend him when I always have been, and Always will be...

A BOON fan!

If you do Bonsai and don't apply some BOON....
You are Fucking up!

But if you Only apply Boon.
Or only Neil,
Or only Sorce,
Or only Adair,
Or only Owen
Or only....

You are also Fucking up....

Sorce

 

[Cadillactaste]

@sorce ... I never felt Adair made it a Battle... We all know he favors Boon...respects his style and thus chose to be his student. But...he refers to others...and how some had the same instruction in Japan and yet...their own style. I am totally lost on this direction of battle of masters.

Comparison...is one thing. But...at the end of the day. All have success...

I respected Adair not to wire loosely...which is not his teaching. But chose a different direction on his assisting, respecting the one teaching the class. I don't have an issue with his preferring to admire one who he's paid to teach him either. We all have ones we respect...surely you have ones in our bonsai circle you respect...even with free will. Which God gave us all...to make our own decisions.

I got from Adair's mentioning the different masters...that...just because they do it differently than Boon...doesn't mean it's wronging, just another's teaching.

 

[sorce]

Battle

Simply bringing up the word....
Where there was no call for it....

Bonsai = sports. Different methods = different sports.

If I see a dude trying to learn golf, but his teacher is a bowling instructor, I will merely point out to that dude, that he may be better served to learn golf with a golf pro.

I am open to a conversation with the bowling instructor, to understand things I may not know, at the end of which, I may agree that a bowling instructor will in fact help a golf swing.

But rather than have that open conversation...
To make the best golfer.

There was a battle between me and the bowling instructor about how his instructor is better than the golf instructor the student was learning from in the first place.

In an effort to make the best golfer ....

An argument about instructors that have absolutely no bearing on the situation is not in any sense heloing the golfer....

Which was the intended purpose .

Sorce

 

[Cadillactaste]

One word...does not reference the tone of a thought @sorce ... But you are a passionate hard to follow fella at times. Love you bro!

 

[Anthony]

Sorce, remember you are dealing with economics here -

Of Bonsai training.
[1] You pay and pay plenty --------- unless you are very well off
and have a large disposable income ------------ you will want your money back

[2[ frequently you set yourself up as teacher to regain the income.

[3] Note if you attend the most airy-fairy of European practices - Fine Art
the teacher must have some form of certification.

For example when K attended Studio Cecil-Graves in Florence, Italy.
Mr. Cecil had attended Yale University as an Art Historian before shifting
to the Ives Gammell studio [ who attended the Atelier of Delaroche and that
lineage starts with the studio of Leonardo Da Vinci ].
A certificate is required.

Then Mr, Graves is Summa Com Laude from the Maryland Institute college
of Art [ 1826 ].

Plus all three teachers are exceptional painters.

What goes on in Japan is guys with rote training and often, no schooling past 16
years old [ have checked ] and the most they can give is a ---------- certificate of
partitcipation.

This type of certificate is frequently used by Oil Companies for seminars.
They are for folk who seldom attend Universities or even Higher education.

The problem is the rote training.

A University study for a Master of Bonsai would be competent in Biology, Chemistry. Physics.
Art, Agriculture/Floriculture/ Horticulture and dablings of Geology.
[ By the way Owen has a degree in I believe Horticulture - which makes him special ]
To train under such a person would be worth it, and it would really cost.
Probably a 5 year schooling, not a summer visit.

BUT what would you apply this education to ?
I can see some hopeful trying to convince mum and dad to spend
University fees to do a Bachelor of Bonsai or worse a Masters.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[River's Edge]

Frank,

Bonsai fits into that realm of a useless talent,

"We grow our trees for Beauty, not Produce or Lumber "

is an old statement from I believe the 1960;s and pretty much sums it up.

Unlike painting or sculpture which can stay in a museum and not need to
be nurtured, a tree grows and changes.
So you find yourself tending lovingly to a white elephant.

So what if you master Health and Design, it does nothing for John Public.

Even the philosophy we use is different to the one put forward by the Japanese.
We use the growing and caring for trees for Ideas, Mental Relaxation, Physical
Exercise and not for Exhibition or Prizes. [ and yes we did exhibit in the early 90]s
until fear of theft became too strong ]
Which is how it was in the ancient days of China.

Thus we have a ceiling limit for purchasing an effort / a mallsai - 300.00TT which
is around 50.00 US, but 1 TT$ spends like 1 US$.

It is easy to admire a Beautifull effort, but all these terms like - Master- really the
way the Japanese teach and behave, the term -- Gardener- would more likely be
applicable.
Did you not read Koybiashi's [ spelling ? ] statement about how much money he wanted to make,
the fame etc, and how after making it $$, he became all philosophical.
Or what one Bnut saw at, I believe his residence -------- a shed of dead trees.

The words --- Bonsai are the playthings of the Rich ---- ring through.

I will always love tending to the trees, hand watering, hand fertilising, keeping them
Healthy, but I will not pretend that I am doing something great.
It has been almost 40 years of love from seed/seedling.
With more natives being found.
Good Day
Anthony

Ancient Trinidadian Chinese saying ---------- the Chinese will never teach you everything.

In other words to protect their income, only an apprentice married into the family
will get it all.
A student is a threat to personal income.
After all, someone has to take over the business and tend to the Master.

Your observations speak eloquently of your state of mind. Simply do not put motivations behind others that do not exist. Some of my happiest times are with the trees in nature, in the garden, in the workshop. Some of my most prized trees were found not purchased. I grow from seed to learn the fundamentals first hand rather than from a book, or a video, or a teacher.
I have read many of the reflections of japanese, Chinese, European and North American masters and respect their individuality. I do not find it necessary to point out their faults, down times in life or human frailities.
One cannot increase ones stature by standing upon another. ( shed of dead trees)
Or as you did to me, suggest that i had difficulty with my children. That is merely a reflection of your thoughts. I did have difficulty when i lost my son too early in life to cancer, Also when he was diagnosed on his 20th birthday and struggled through cancer three times before passing away at 41. Freedom of Speech does not mean Freedom of Responsibility for the words we speak.