It depends...

Adair M

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Yes, that’s my stock answer to virtually any question I get about anything related to bonsai.

I know it’s frustrating. Everyone wants a simple answer or procedure. Unfortunately, there rarely is one.

I suppose that’s why “the rules” were invented. There are so many variables with bonsai, having a few rules to go by makes it a little easier. Even then, “the rules can be broken”...
 

Clicio

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There are so many variables with bonsai, having a few rules to go by makes it a little easier...

EVEN with the rules (and the broken ones), it still depends.
Fist, there are so many contradictions among authors that a student can become literally crazy. Nuts, if you wish.
Second, WHOSE rules to follow? There are quite a few masters, and the rules can be completely different.
Even if one sticks to the japanese traditional methods, then comes Ebihara and reinvents them.
For a beginner, I would get ONE set of rules and stick to it, regardless of the others.
 

Anthony

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Well it's - guidelines

And Clicio, the answer you are looking for is [ if you are exhibiting ] how is the
tree accepted.

Backyard viewing anything goes.

So before you enter an exhibition find out about what is acceptable.

Apart from that - Health is always important.

Sifu is probably having a reaction to my post on Bonsai Today 12 - image example.
Good Day
Anthony
 

0soyoung

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IMHO, if one knows upon what it depends, one should be able to list, for example.
  • things
    • upon what they depend
      • conditions of that dependence
        • appropriate action(s)
OR phrase this knowledge as a decision tree as @bonhe did years ago for pine maladies.
If this, then ____, else _____

It’s almost like one has to put some thought into it...crazy!!
Indeed! I agree wholeheartedly.
But, it saves a lot of time if the wheel doesn't have to be re-invented every time.
 

Adair M

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EVEN with the rules (and the broken ones), it still depends.
Fist, there are so many contradictions among authors that a student can become literally crazy. Nuts, if you wish.
Second, WHOSE rules to follow? There are quite a few masters, and the rules can be completely different.
Even if one sticks to the japanese traditional methods, then comes Ebihara and reinvents them.
For a beginner, I would get ONE set of rules and stick to it, regardless of the others.
Yep.

Here is the issue I have with books. Especially the older books: they tend to copy each other. And many are based to the old Japanese methods.

Take repotting, for example. Has anyone ever seen “half bare root” repotting in a book? I haven’t.

Why not? I think it’s because in Japan, they have used their potting mix for so long, its universal. All the bonsai nurseries and growers use it. Unlike here in the US where landscape nurseries use a peatmoss based mix. When Japanese repot, the tree is already in good soil, they don’t have to get rid of old organic soil. We have a different situation here.

I truly believe that the best way to learn bonsai is in person with someone who is better at it than you are. Choose someone whose trees you like, whose trees you would like to emulate, someone who’s personality you can live with, someone who you can meet with several times over the year, and hopefully, you can work with for several years! Actually, another good way (maybe even better!) to evaluate a teacher is to look at the trees his students produce!

I know this isn’t possible for everyone, but short of apprenticing in Japan, it’s the best way.

I would avoid trying other teachers until a degree of mastery of the principles of the teacher has been achieved. Then you can decide to continue with that teacher or move on to someone else you think can advance your skills.
 

Adair M

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Well it's - guidelines

And Clicio, the answer you are looking for is [ if you are exhibiting ] how is the
tree accepted.

Backyard viewing anything goes.

So before you enter an exhibition find out about what is acceptable.

Apart from that - Health is always important.

Sifu is probably having a reaction to my post on Bonsai Today 12 - image example.
Good Day
Anthony
Actually, Anthony, what got me thinking was a post Sorce made about eliminating algae and moss on trunks of trees. And how to eliminate it and/or prevent it.

And, of course, the answer was: it depends! Lol!
 

Clicio

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I truly believe that the best way to learn bonsai is in person with someone who is better at it than you are.

I am positive that is the best way.
Problem is, not everyone has the time/money/resources to do it regularly.
So here comes the book, the Internet, YouTube.
And of course, the contradictions.
 

fourteener

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IMHO, if one knows upon what it depends, one should be able to list, for example.
  • things
    • upon what they depend
      • conditions of that dependence
        • appropriate action(s)
OR phrase this knowledge as a decision tree as @bonhe did years ago for pine maladies.
If this, then ____, else _____


Indeed! I agree wholeheartedly.
But, it saves a lot of time if the wheel doesn't have to be re-invented every time.

One doesn’t have to reinvent the wheel, just use one.
 

Clicio

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Actually, Anthony, what got me thinking was a post Sorce made about eliminating algae and moss on trunks of trees. And how to eliminate it and/or prevent it.
And, of course, the answer was: it depends! Lol!

@sorce explain yourself!
 

Adair M

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I am positive that is the best way.
Problem is, not everyone has the time/money/resources to do it regularly.
So here comes the book, the Internet, YouTube.
And of course, the contradictions.
Still, do some research and find consistency.

For example: If you like Ryan Neil’s work, subscribe to his website and videos. Learn which of his students post blogs and follow them. Ryan was a Kimura student. Research Kimura. Learn to wire like he does. And how Ryan does. Make friends with other Ryan students. Organize Study Groups where a couple of like minded people can get together and support each other.

Meanwhile, if you find someone who takes a different approach to bonsai, it’s ok to ignore them! Or at least while you are learning the basics of your teacher’s approach.

A bit of an example: as all of you know I’m an SoB, Student of Boon. The Atlanta Bonsai Society brings in a variety of bonsai artists during the year to give demos, workshops, and critiques. At one meeting Kathy Shaner was giving a demo on a neglected shimpaku, and I offered to help her clean it up. ( Get rid of weak and dead foliage.). I did this while she was working deadwood on the other side of the tree. Then when it came to wiring, she told me to wire a couple branches on one side while she wired on the other. Well, Kathy wires very differently than Boon. Kathy wires very loose! Hardly touches the branch at all. I wire so that the wire just barely touches the branch. So, after I completed my wiring, she told me it was too tight, so I didn’t argue with her, I didn’t try to copy her style of wiring, I just stopped wiring and went to a different task: cleaning the underside of the pads to remove downward hanging foliage.

Kathy’s wiring style is pretty much unique to her. I don’t know of any other Masters who do it her way.
I do know she has lots of students and followers.

Now, i think it would have been very possible for someone to have gotten very confused about wiring trying to do both Kathy’s way, and Boon’s way. Both artists are very successful. As are their students. But they take a very different approach to a fundamental bonsai skill: wiring.

So, I let Kathy have her say about how to wire that tree, I just didn’t do it. Just as several years ago Watren Hill told me to decandle a Japanese Black Pine in October. I didn’t do that either!

Both of these famous bonsai Masters told me to do something very much contrary from what Boon was teaching me. I chose to ignore what they said and stick with Boon’s program.
 

Adair M

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I thought this was going about you picking an adult diaper for wearing while doing Bonsai. ?
Oh, that’s easy! Just choose the one that’s right for your gender. Just ask Bruce Jenner!


Oh! Wait...
 

LanceMac10

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I note all @Adair M preaches.......then add my "depends" to suit my needs. I think it's worked quite well for me, be he might disagree!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Signed: Internet SoA !!!!!!!!!!;):D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:eek:
 

sorce

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Teachers are good for the discipline.

But a teacher is one person and one person can't know everything.

The key to figuring out the "depends" is knowing as much as you can to fill in the 0so presented outline.

Relying on one Japanese trained teacher is relying on their ability to remember that overseas education is merely supplemental to what they must know to fully move us into a position where we can become so set in correct ways. Utilizing the materials we have available to us here. Nursery Stock, Swamp Trees, an entirely independent education better learned by the guys who have been doing it for years. Vance, Zach.

Ryan has demonstrated a good ability to stay open minded and work to help even folks who cant afford to spend a lot of money on stock to produce good trees.

Owen seems determined to make some things we have available useable.

These are signs of Japanese trained professionals that kept an eye on the big picture mission.

I like that cuz that's how I like to do Bonsai.

Some people are more comfortable with finished trees and APL.

Sorce
 
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