I think this tree was ruined .... thoughts

[Smoke]

I understand this is in the early stages , what is your future image for this tree? Left side is super heavy with a lot of straight branches , right side you put a lot of movement in , I’m just curious , not disrespect just curious , this is an oddball , I hesitated to even post this because of your attack mode lol , not trying to stir the pot , but it is rough to look at currently ? Just trying to absorb over here , I like your blog and enjoy your wisdom , I’m just curious, it just seems odd ,busy? how big is this tree ?

I think most know my wife recently died last August. We were married 33 years and she was my largest critic and foil. We had huge fun though. Now I have a new woman in my life. We are engaged and planning our future. She says I have a quirk that she has never had to deal with in her life of 60 years. I answer questions.....with questions.

So here goes......
......keep in mind that my style of teaching is much the same way I do here. No I'm not an asshole, no I don't scream at people.... but I will tell you when your wasting your time and my time.

I understand this is in the early stages , what is your future image for this tree? Left side is super heavy with a lot of straight branches , right side you put a lot of movement in

My question.....tell me what you see between image number two and image number three? I hope you tell me that you see twice as much foliage and the beginnings of much more ramification. I hope you tell me that it looks like by the end of this season I will be thinning out about half of those branches. I hope that the future canopy looks much like it does now but with larger fuller branch divisions and much more padded ramification. It will get there, but in the mean time while hard to look at now it still looks better than this.

 

[milehigh_7]

I wouldn’t say ruined, but severely overworked which will set it back years, assuming it survives this insult.

My first thought was, "Why?" Overall I am in agreement with this statement.

 

[milehigh_7]

My first thought was, "Why?" When I say that I am not being a smart ass, I would love to know what was going on in the person's head. Did they have a vision for what they wanted the tree to become? Did they know their tree well enough to know how it would respond to the punishment?

I will look at a tree from every possible angle sometimes for a year or more and think about what I see. I will consider what will happen If a cut is made or if a bend is made or what it would look like planted at a different angle. I do this over and over until I have the tree memorized. I will often just wait until something comes to me. Like I said this might be years.

I read something a few years ago about how @Smoke gets movement and taper in the trunks of his tridents and this did a few things to me. First, whenever I see I trident with insufficient movement and taper through the middle of the trunk, I think, "You should have cut that back about 5 more times. Now your tree is forever too straight." The other thing it did was I decided to use this technique on all of my vitex from now on unless I have a reason not to. So now I have a plan for these trees and a vision in my head of what I want to accomplish for the next 5-7 years. I can even see what I hope they look like. We will see.

One thing I see very often is people just randomly cutting branches and maybe wrapping a piece of wire around at the end. Then they will say, "What do you think?" Looking at that tree, I just have major doubts that much forethought went into it. Given how much I love and respect trees, it kind of pisses me off. Hack and slash bonsai is not my thing.

 

[justBonsai]

I think bujin was the right direction for the tree but as others have mentioned it was executed terribly. Foliage doesn't look healthy to begin with and he cut almost all of it off. Stylistically there must of been a few options there but they're all lost now.

 

[sorce]

Fuck Me! ok keep that bold!

Time for a .....

This Tree For Real!

What sucks most about the person who styled this tree NOT being here...is we cant ask questions and only have pictures to figure out what happened.
Pictures I don't think anyone looked at....
Beyond their "shocked at removal".


Since it all makes perfect sense to me....
Except for the possible health part*...

We know pics can make trees look more yellow. If you look at the bits in back and under other foliage shade....they are greener, plus that lovely tell tale, "this is unhealthy" dead part....we can see this tree is healthy, and is yellow due to pic, and maybe a little dull still dormant.

Pine folks can derive a better idea of health by looking at the old branches....
Seems to me it was healthy enough the last couple years to put out pretty long candles.
Don't know where those needles went..
But those missing needles is the only sign of a possible lack of health* that this MAY have needed.

Looks to have been in that pot for a healthy long while, and tended well.

Plus we know Pine strength is in the roots...

So as to health....seems healthy enough to survive the work and further, even be able to endure continued work later this year, provided it remains strong, if not, maybe one...two years tops should prove health enough to continue work.

Compare that to the x amount of years it would take to get that spindly ass foliage, coming off of shittily placed lower branches...that seem to have no less than 5-16 branches coming off from one place...
Into proper order....
Gotta be more than 2-3 years....and for an outcome that won't hold as much interest as this tree in the direction it has been put on.

Options removed? What options?
The truth is we can't see whether there may have been better options or not. But please, utilizing the second picture....put those "options" back on....what virtual can you create that would look more pleasing than the bunjin here...? And do you think you could get it there faster than this bunjin path will be pleasing?

Respect for tree?
One of the best Masters in Japan, I think it may have been Kimura, talks about respecting a tree by moving it forward in that one leap that stops JUST before death.
Walking that line on purpose because sometimes it is exactly what you must do to create EXCELLENCE.

Our own gardens, Kimura's garden, every garden....
Professional and Hobbyist alike....
Have dozens of tree carcasses from "learning experiences", from finding that line to walk.

If we do not reach out to ALL these garden owners, and hold memorials for each and every dead tree....

Why the concern here?

What makes this tree so important that it gets this attention?

Why come here to seek validation on a condemning (negative) thought that has about a dead 50/50 chance of being correct as far as health is concerned...
And holds Absolutely no weight in regards to the styling of this tree?

Why seek validation for a thought that, if validation is received, will only serve to make you more unhappy?

And once this validation is received....
What are you going to do with it?

Wait a few years for an "I told you so"?

Pretty clear why this thread exists....

The last pic shows that "eye flow stopping" jin removed...

So not only do we see there was thought put into this tree before...
But also after styling.

So if we give you validation, if we say you are right....it will only serve to add to your discomfort about this tree.

And if we say you are wrong....

Can we then go find this same discussion, with the same 6 thousand people, on a different website?

The math says that no matter which group, the % of people that agree or disagree are going to be close to the same.

So while this thread hopefully serves to give bonsai insight....
It definitely gives insight to "human".

Humans we should build up as brothers, not break down as enemies.

Talk this tree FOR REAL...
or this is one of THE WEAKEST threads ever!

Good God. We cant suck this much!

Sorce

 

[Clicio]

Fuck Me! ok keep that bold!

Time for a .....

This Tree For Real!

What sucks most about the person who styled this tree NOT being here...is we cant ask questions and only have pictures to figure out what happened.
Pictures I don't think anyone looked at....
Beyond their "shocked at removal".

View attachment 181746
Since it all makes perfect sense to me....
Except for the possible health part*...

We know pics can make trees look more yellow. If you look at the bits in back and under other foliage shade....they are greener, plus that lovely tell tale, "this is unhealthy" dead part....we can see this tree is healthy, and is yellow due to pic, and maybe a little dull still dormant.

Pine folks can derive a better idea of health by looking at the old branches....
Seems to me it was healthy enough the last couple years to put out pretty long candles.
Don't know where those needles went..
But those missing needles is the only sign of a possible lack of health* that this MAY have needed.

Looks to have been in that pot for a healthy long while, and tended well.

Plus we know Pine strength is in the roots...

So as to health....seems healthy enough to survive the work and further, even be able to endure continued work later this year, provided it remains strong, if not, maybe one...two years tops should prove health enough to continue work.

Compare that to the x amount of years it would take to get that spindly ass foliage, coming off of shittily placed lower branches...that seem to have no less than 5-16 branches coming off from one place...
Into proper order....
Gotta be more than 2-3 years....and for an outcome that won't hold as much interest as this tree in the direction it has been put on.

Options removed? What options?
The truth is we can't see whether there may have been better options or not. But please, utilizing the second picture....put those "options" back on....what virtual can you create that would look more pleasing than the bunjin here...? And do you think you could get it there faster than this bunjin path will be pleasing?

Respect for tree?
One of the best Masters in Japan, I think it may have been Kimura, talks about respecting a tree by moving it forward in that one leap that stops JUST before death.
Walking that line on purpose because sometimes it is exactly what you must do to create EXCELLENCE.

Our own gardens, Kimura's garden, every garden....
Professional and Hobbyist alike....
Have dozens of tree carcasses from "learning experiences", from finding that line to walk.

If we do not reach out to ALL these garden owners, and hold memorials for each and every dead tree....

Why the concern here?

What makes this tree so important that it gets this attention?

Why come here to seek validation on a condemning (negative) thought that has about a dead 50/50 chance of being correct as far as health is concerned...
And holds Absolutely no weight in regards to the styling of this tree?

Why seek validation for a thought that, if validation is received, will only serve to make you more unhappy?

And once this validation is received....
What are you going to do with it?

Wait a few years for an "I told you so"?

Pretty clear why this thread exists....

The last pic shows that "eye flow stopping" jin removed...

So not only do we see there was thought put into this tree before...
But also after styling.

So if we give you validation, if we say you are right....it will only serve to add to your discomfort about this tree.

And if we say you are wrong....

Can we then go find this same discussion, with the same 6 thousand people, on a different website?

The math says that no matter which group, the % of people that agree or disagree are going to be close to the same.

So while this thread hopefully serves to give bonsai insight....
It definitely gives insight to "human".

Humans we should build up as brothers, not break down as enemies.

Talk this tree FOR REAL...
or this is one of THE WEAKEST threads ever!

Good God. We cant suck this much!

Sorce

Can I like your comment more than once?

 

[sorce]

Can I like your comment more than once?

Yes. But first you must unlike it.
I wonder how the new bnut reacts to this multiple likes.

I try to get BVF's alerts up to millions by liking and unliking his posts ...

Wonder of it still works!?

Sorce

 

[Clicio]

Wonder of it still works!?

Nope. I've just tried it.

 

[A. Gorilla]

Can't help but wonder....if you attached a pro's name to this situation....would anyone say?...

"It's not supposed to look good, right now. But don't worry....He/she is looking 50 YEARS down the road, not just 1, 5, or 10."

Or: "This person is a master of before and after care. This tree will be fine."

There'd have to be at least a few.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Can't help but wonder....if you attached a pro's name to this situation....would anyone say?...

"It's not supposed to look good, right now. But don't worry....He/she is looking 50 YEARS down the road, not just 1, 5, or 10."

Or: "This person is a master of before and after care. This tree will be fine."

There'd have to be at least a few.

That was so deep for a gorilla........you guys really are GREAT apes lol just kidding couldnt resist

 

[A. Gorilla]

That was so deep for a gorilla........you guys really are GREAT apes lol just kidding couldnt resist

It's an important distinction. Gibbons and siamangs are lesser apes, and I don't associate with them. For obvious reasons.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Good good....choose those friends wisely!

It's an important distinction. Gibbons and siamangs are lesser apes, and I don't associate with them. For obvious reasons.

 

[just.wing.it]

Can't help but wonder....if you attached a pro's name to this situation....would anyone say?...

"It's not supposed to look good, right now. But don't worry....He/she is looking 50 YEARS down the road, not just 1, 5, or 10."

Or: "This person is a master of before and after care. This tree will be fine."

There'd have to be at least a few.

Interesting thought there...
I'm sure you're right.
I feel some Bnut social experimentation coming on...?

Post one of your ugly ass trees and say it just came from a private workshop by ______(fill in the blank).

Haha, no no no, that's not right...

 

[A. Gorilla]

Interesting thought there...
I'm sure you're right.
I feel some Bnut social experimentation coming on...?

Post one of your ugly ass trees and say it just came from a private workshop by ______(fill in the blank).

Haha, no no no, that's not right...

I was thinking of a particular master and a video of a show critique. It really annoys me when criticisms lack a reasonably predictable basis. If you hear a criticism and you go: "A-ha...makes perfect sense. Thank you for explaining"....I like that.

When it comes down to: "...because that's what I like." Or "that's what the Japanese like"....I sez to myself: "Well, how was I supposed to predict that? And what good does it do me for the next judge?"

Same person, a demo. Some people were saying: "Eh? Uh...looks ok. I guess." Others: "Trust me. In 100 years, you'll see why those choices were made."

I guess I'll just have to take their word for it.

 

[just.wing.it]

I was thinking of a particular master and a video of a show critique. It really annoys me when criticisms lack a reasonably predictable basis. If you hear a criticism and you go: "A-ha...makes perfect sense. Thank you for explaining"....I like that.

When it comes down to: "...because that's what I like." Or "that's what the Japanese like"....I sez to myself: "Well, how was I supposed to predict that? And what good does it do me for the next judge?"

Same person, a demo. Some people were saying: "Eh? Uh...looks ok. I guess." Others: "Trust me. In 100 years, you'll see why those choices were made."

I guess I'll just have to take their word for it.

Lol!
Yeah, I hear you...
"100 years from now, I won't see shit, except for the inside of an urn, or casket."

 

[GGB]

The color of the foliage on this pine makes me think it's a native eastern US species. If that was a scots pine, I think (just judging by the color) it's about done

 

[just.wing.it]

The color of the foliage on this pine makes me think it's a native eastern US species. If that was a scots pine, I think (just judging by the color) it's about done

Yeah, it's pale for sure...
Hmm....
Hard to zoom in and see how many needles per fascile.

 

[wireme]

Fuck Me! ok keep that bold!

Time for a .....

This Tree For Real!

What sucks most about the person who styled this tree NOT being here...is we cant ask questions and only have pictures to figure out what happened.
Pictures I don't think anyone looked at....
Beyond their "shocked at removal".

View attachment 181746
Since it all makes perfect sense to me....
Except for the possible health part*...

We know pics can make trees look more yellow. If you look at the bits in back and under other foliage shade....they are greener, plus that lovely tell tale, "this is unhealthy" dead part....we can see this tree is healthy, and is yellow due to pic, and maybe a little dull still dormant.

Pine folks can derive a better idea of health by looking at the old branches....
Seems to me it was healthy enough the last couple years to put out pretty long candles.
Don't know where those needles went..
But those missing needles is the only sign of a possible lack of health* that this MAY have needed.

Looks to have been in that pot for a healthy long while, and tended well.

Plus we know Pine strength is in the roots...

So as to health....seems healthy enough to survive the work and further, even be able to endure continued work later this year, provided it remains strong, if not, maybe one...two years tops should prove health enough to continue work.

Compare that to the x amount of years it would take to get that spindly ass foliage, coming off of shittily placed lower branches...that seem to have no less than 5-16 branches coming off from one place...
Into proper order....
Gotta be more than 2-3 years....and for an outcome that won't hold as much interest as this tree in the direction it has been put on.

Options removed? What options?
The truth is we can't see whether there may have been better options or not. But please, utilizing the second picture....put those "options" back on....what virtual can you create that would look more pleasing than the bunjin here...? And do you think you could get it there faster than this bunjin path will be pleasing?

Respect for tree?
One of the best Masters in Japan, I think it may have been Kimura, talks about respecting a tree by moving it forward in that one leap that stops JUST before death.
Walking that line on purpose because sometimes it is exactly what you must do to create EXCELLENCE.

Our own gardens, Kimura's garden, every garden....
Professional and Hobbyist alike....
Have dozens of tree carcasses from "learning experiences", from finding that line to walk.

If we do not reach out to ALL these garden owners, and hold memorials for each and every dead tree....

Why the concern here?

What makes this tree so important that it gets this attention?

Why come here to seek validation on a condemning (negative) thought that has about a dead 50/50 chance of being correct as far as health is concerned...
And holds Absolutely no weight in regards to the styling of this tree?

Why seek validation for a thought that, if validation is received, will only serve to make you more unhappy?

And once this validation is received....
What are you going to do with it?

Wait a few years for an "I told you so"?

Pretty clear why this thread exists....

The last pic shows that "eye flow stopping" jin removed...

So not only do we see there was thought put into this tree before...
But also after styling.

So if we give you validation, if we say you are right....it will only serve to add to your discomfort about this tree.

And if we say you are wrong....

Can we then go find this same discussion, with the same 6 thousand people, on a different website?

The math says that no matter which group, the % of people that agree or disagree are going to be close to the same.

So while this thread hopefully serves to give bonsai insight....
It definitely gives insight to "human".

Humans we should build up as brothers, not break down as enemies.

Talk this tree FOR REAL...
or this is one of THE WEAKEST threads ever!

Good God. We cant suck this much!

Sorce

Nice post.
I was thinking some more on this tree. Thinking about what it would take from here for it to be not just good but fantastic in my view.
Potted into something suitable. Branches set and wire removed, nothing moved at all, (I think, we don’t really have the right viewing angle) no extra growth, ramification, nothing, needles can even stay yellow.
Jinns worked so that it appears to be natural breaks, not even fully peeled, just looking like the bark is naturally flaking off. Emm, that’s it I guess, no development needed. That would gives us an absolutely authentic image. Note, the use of authentic instead of naturalistic, slight difference but this would be both really. Now if something like that is the intent,and is sustained I’d applaud all day.
That’s all just visuals, nothing to do with horticulture, probably I guess it’s very likely that smokes comments are dead on correct..
Anyway, creating the imagery of a tree that is barely growing and clinging to life with a tree that actually is just barely clinging to life, see, authentic!!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

From the photos, I would agree, the tree is ruined. The little remaining foliage is wired in a random fashion, no coherent theme, no visual cue as to why the tree has this shape. Definitely failed as a bunjin.

If it were mine, I would have tried to keep most of the branches. Most from north America do not understand bunjin, myself I avoid that style because I recognize it as very difficult to pull off. 98% of North American bunjin look contrived, or just plain amateurish.

 

[sorce]

smokes comments are dead on correct.

I am afraid of this too...
But that just gives me all the more spirit to think...know...this tree. In the right situation CAN live....

And me...

I think it's a ballsy well calculated move....
With a full understanding that the result may be a dead tree...

But I MUST face this fact that......

Gentle MOVEs and Life threatening moves surely create different artistic ends.

And for that I just think sometimes you roll the Fucking dice on purpose, for the outcome that only comes with great stress.

I love this tree. I find it amazingly well thoufht out and artistically very properly executed.

This is why I can't get behind the negative energy looming in the fact this thread exists.
This tree needs all the positive energy it can get. And if we truly love bonsai. We should do everything we can to stay positive!

Even if the outcome lives, is absolute shit, and NEVER again reaches a point like the before pic .

But then, it is just another carcass in what can be any of our gardens!

We have a great responsibility to earth in digging these trees and keeping them alive in the greatest artistic fashion we can....to celebrate earth.
If sometimes, we get overzealous in our art, to push the boundaries of the celebration...
Earth understands!

Sorce