How far have you developed a tree before digging

[rockm]

"id disagree and say that it does help the new roots that will form as a result of the trench and back fill, especially if i were to add bonsai soil or the rotted mulch."

How? Fertilizer doesn't help new roots form. Hormones released in the tree in response to loss of roots does that. Applying fertilizer does nothing to speed that process.

New feeder roots don't function immediately upon formation and it takes a month or more for them to form on cut roots--which is the reason the there's really no need to fertilize bonsai in the weeks after they've been repotted. Might make a difference if your timing is precise, but otherwise it's really not worth the effort.

 

[Waltron]

fair enough, I do like to think my timing is precise, and your opinion of my involved effort noted. .me young me have strong back .some times I carry a 5 gallon jug with me to the woods with a nice mix of good ferts chem in the growing season. maybe even some wait for it...super thrive! early season of course and in certain instances. generally though i just carry a little bit of granular in the early season which doesn't really take effect until it gets warmer anyway, by which time the roots should be started. either way it will add nutrients to the surrounding soil at some point.. minimal effort there and it makes me feel good about myself so id say its worth the effort, but hey.. maybe im a fool!

 

[rockm]

Me old, me work smart ;-) Me no cart 50 lb five gallon liquid-filled containers through wood four or five times in the summer heat. Me just saw big trees out all at once, lug 150 root mass back ONCE -- so me don't have to traipse through increasingly deer tick-infested woodland in late spring and summer watering trees to no effect. Me also too poor for Superthrive snake oil, know that trees have been growing new parts for millions of years without my help.

 

[M. Frary]

Tarzan know where Tarzan go!

 

[j evans]

What's the question?

 

[Waltron]

Me old, me work smart ;-) Me no cart 50 lb five gallon liquid-filled containers through wood four or five times in the summer heat. Me just saw big trees out all at once, lug 150 root mass back ONCE -- so me don't have to traipse through increasingly deer tick-infested woodland in late spring and summer watering trees to no effect. Me also too poor for Superthrive snake oil, know that trees have been growing new parts for millions of years without my help.

im sorry bro but im callin bull shit. show me something. ive posted most of my new collects, what have you dug this year? last?

 

[CWTurner]

Uh Oh

 

[rockm]

im sorry bro but im callin bull shit. show me something. ive posted most of my new collects, what have you dug this year? last?

I'm sorry bro--do a search on my name.

Here are couple to help:
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-1st-post-our-flower-bed-acer-discovery.11159/#post-142078

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/this-springs-collection.7360/#post-93731

This year? Last year? Nothing, but in the previous 20 years, I couldn't say.

 

[sorce]

I'm sorry bro--do a search on my name.

Here are couple to help:
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/my-1st-post-our-flower-bed-acer-discovery.11159/#post-142078

http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/this-springs-collection.7360/#post-93731

I was hoping for a.....

Me old enough not prove self to young whippersnapper.

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I was hoping for a.....

Me old enough not prove self to young whippersnapper.

Sorce

Nah, I respect the question.

And FWIW, I learned HOW to collect by listening. I have been talking to people like Zach Smith, Vito Megna, Gary Marchal and others for a long time.

I got this collected oak from Vito about 20 years ago. He was a fountain of information and opened my eyes as to what was possible and how to get things done. This oak was lifted all at once from the hill country near Austin, Tex. No worries about tap roots or building a new root mass on site. The all at once collection method works for many species. Instead of calling boshee, you oughtta try it.

 

[Underdog]

Would it be common to leave it for a few years wile doing that or do most people dig it up before you would get that far?

Racer, I'm pretty new too but your idea made perfect sense to me. I thought it a good idea too... We both are learning.

 

[Atrox]

I feel answers of any value to such a general question should be solid examples of various techniques. As stated in my other posts I have a fairly unique situation in spending the summer in the middle of a super collection area at 6,500' + in SW New Mexico. 100 acres or so was heavily thinned/ logged then "brush hogged" to spread the slash, 25 years ago. Since this area has been grazed lightly. The result is 3 species of oak, pinion pine, ponderosa and alligator juniper, the small stumps that evaded a complete cutting by the brush hog. So for 25 years these survivors have been cared for by the cattle awaiting collection. Of the literally hundreds of candidates I have discovered, for 1-3 years, I have been working a dozen or so for collection. Trenching, shovel root cutting, burrowing under to cut tap roots, basic trimming above and yes I have humped many a 5gal jug of water to them before the rains start. (I am only 70 so it's just a pleasant workout for me) Two Juniper collected successfully last spring, and now the real diggin' is starting. I also have a several manzanita successfully collected last spring and more to come, that were growing with out the afore mentioned thinning ect. I know "without photos it didn't happen!" and I fully agree but I am here at the cabin with a very poor WIFI connection and will start posts in "collecting" in a couple of weeks from Tucson.

 

[Waltron]

I feel answers of any value to such a general question should be solid examples of various techniques. As stated in my other posts I have a fairly unique situation in spending the summer in the middle of a super collection area at 6,500' + in SW New Mexico. 100 acres or so was heavily thinned/ logged then "brush hogged" to spread the slash, 25 years ago. Since this area has been grazed lightly. The result is 3 species of oak, pinion pine, ponderosa and alligator juniper, the small stumps that evaded a complete cutting by the brush hog. So for 25 years these survivors have been cared for by the cattle awaiting collection. Of the literally hundreds of candidates I have discovered, for 1-3 years, I have been working a dozen or so for collection. Trenching, shovel root cutting, burrowing under to cut tap roots, basic trimming above and yes I have humped many a 5gal jug of water to them before the rains start. (I am only 70 so it's just a pleasant workout for me) Two Juniper collected successfully last spring, and now the real diggin' is starting. I also have a several manzanita successfully collected last spring and more to come, that were growing with out the afore mentioned thinning ect. I know "without photos it didn't happen!" and I fully agree but I am here at the cabin with a very poor WIFI connection and will start posts in "collecting" in a couple of weeks from Tucson.

sounds like a good spot, your methods seem sound to me.

I was wondering why RockM was knocking me for basic, what I thought was widely accepted, collection techniques.. think its called the 3 year plan? I basically just do what ive read from published articles..and it seems to work for me and other people. its a nice oak RockM0 no doubt., but if i were to say I went with that all at once collection on the beast, I feel people would be Jabbin at that method saying "oh you should have prepped it for a few seasons.... how are you going to stuff a tap root in a bonsai pot anyway?"

 

[Spdyracer]

I feel answers of any value to such a general question should be solid examples of various techniques. As stated in my other posts I have a fairly unique situation in spending the summer in the middle of a super collection area at 6,500' + in SW New Mexico. 100 acres or so was heavily thinned/ logged then "brush hogged" to spread the slash, 25 years ago. Since this area has been grazed lightly. The result is 3 species of oak, pinion pine, ponderosa and alligator juniper, the small stumps that evaded a complete cutting by the brush hog. So for 25 years these survivors have been cared for by the cattle awaiting collection. Of the literally hundreds of candidates I have discovered, for 1-3 years, I have been working a dozen or so for collection. Trenching, shovel root cutting, burrowing under to cut tap roots, basic trimming above and yes I have humped many a 5gal jug of water to them before the rains start. (I am only 70 so it's just a pleasant workout for me) Two Juniper collected successfully last spring, and now the real diggin' is starting. I also have a several manzanita successfully collected last spring and more to come, that were growing with out the afore mentioned thinning ect. I know "without photos it didn't happen!" and I fully agree but I am here at the cabin with a very poor WIFI connection and will start posts in "collecting" in a couple of weeks from Tucson.

Can you shed any light on the possible advantages or even disadvantages you feel comes along with doing things this way? Do you believe the trees act differently by leaving them for a time instead of digging and chopping at the same time? Any insight on why you prefer to work with the trees like this is appreciated.

 

[Spdyracer]

Racer, I'm pretty new too but your idea made perfect sense to me. I thought it a good idea too... We both are learning.

Thanks underdog and yes definitely learning. I didn't think what I was asking was an uncommon thing or that controversial but I guess with anything there's good and bad things about it and different people have there way of doing things. I was just trying to get a head start on next year by chopping a few trees and thought that leaving there roots alone may keep them stronger for now while hopefully they grow new shoots. Still think it's worth a try doing it this way and see what works for me in my situation. I'm sure if nothing else I'll learn something new through all of this.

 

[davetree]

Mark has an acerbic style, get used to it.

 

[Underdog]

acerbic style

Had to google this too. Learning a lot here

 

[Cypress187]

I chopped some 'wild' tree's to see if they improve.

 

[Atrox]

SPDY- When I get back home and post photos, problems with direct collecting these examples may be more apparent. This is a relatively dry pinion juniper forest in SW new Mexico. The soil is generally decomposing granite. The oaks, juniper and pines I work are very old trees although small on top because of the clearing and brush hogging of the entire area in the past. At first I had failures of both direct collecting in one swoop. They have very large roots due to their real age even though they appear small on top. The oak in my avatar (trunk near 2" dia) was trenched and what I thought the only big roots cut, left until the next spring but failed the collection, very loose soil was my biggest problem on collection. All the pinions (sorry no tilda) I have investigated have tap roots nearly the size of the trunk, like a carrot in loose soil. The manzanita are in a different area and my patch is in a swale of top soil over solid granite bedrock, what luck!!! One species at a time with photos I will try and make my technique clear. For my conditions and species careful, well researched here, direct collection has failed across the board (manzanita excepted).

 

[Atrox]

This is why grab and go doesn't work on the old trees in my area. Retained a good "root ball" such as it was. while cutting the roots shown, boxed and watered on site and ofcorse it didn't make it.