Help styling my Olive bonsais.

[maroun.c]

Well...

That's one course of action. The first thing you need to do is get it in better soil. If the tree has good roots, it will be strong and you can do amazing things with it. Weak roots and it won't be strong, and you may not get the results you're hoping for.

This calls for a change of plan for my bonsais. I was under the impression. My trees were on the right track shape wise and I had learned that my soil was bad. I had decided to only reply the ones that were doing bad and delay the repot for all others till next June. As they all now need to be chopped around Mar and as I need to make sure their roots are fine to maximize their chances I will reply all the bonsaïs that are in this soil to a pumice only soil or maybe a mix of pumice and perlite (don't have acadama) might add crushed clay balls as well for a bit of humidity retention. Repot will tell more about roots status and hopefully if it's bad they'll improve till March.
@ conor dash yes these were very good links.


Thanks
Maroun

 

[ColinFraser]

I read both those links (cos that's just what I do, all day), and that second one is one I've read before. I think it's a really great explanation and helped me a lot with understanding trunk chops. Saying that, I don't think I'll ever be 100% till I actually go through the entire process but just wanted to say, that second link is definitely a good one!

That second one is the blog of our very own Himself-of-the-Pink-Thong; I'm sure he'd be pleased that you found it informative. One last thing to remember about that process - it doesn't usually happen in a bonsai pot! Growing trunks and thickening new leaders will probably take a lifetime unless the tree is in a large pot or the ground. The pot comes near the very end of a long process . . .

 

[ColinFraser]

did I get it right???

I think the best course of action with these trees might be to just use them to learn about soil, repotting, watering, etc. Once you have a handle on that stuff, then you can get drastic with the restyling

 

[maroun.c]

Growing trunks and thickening new leaders will probably take a lifetime unless the tree is in a large pot or the ground. The pot comes near the very end of a long process . . .

How large of a pot are we talking here 20-30 cm diameter an death or much larger for my trees for example?
In a large pot and good care and fertilizing woul you get a thicker trunk and thick leaders in 2-3 years or more?
Does this mean I'm better off looking for better starting material if my plan is to experiment with styling and maybe get a nearly completed bonsai in 4-5 years?

 

[Adair M]

Olives grow branches very quickly. The key is to get a good trunk to work with.

 

[ColinFraser]

How large of a pot are we talking here 20-30 cm diameter an death or much larger for my trees for example?
In a large pot and good care and fertilizing woul you get a thicker trunk and thick leaders in 2-3 years or more?
Does this mean I'm better off looking for better starting material if my plan is to experiment with styling and maybe get a nearly completed bonsai in 4-5 years?

What we Americans would call a 5-gallon pot might be a good place to start, but the bigger the better.
Here (slightly edited/paraphrased) is what i told another new member recently on this topic:

To increase the diameter of the trunk, the tree has to be allowed to grow unhindered- the more hindrances there are, the slower the trunk will develop. A small pot is a hindrance. Pruning and wiring - both hindrances too. Defoliation, pinching, and pretty much any other bonsai stuff . . . You guessed it, all of these things will slow down (or even stop) trunk thickening. So, if you keep your (tree) in a small pot and do bonsai stuff to it . . . the trunk will probably not change significantly, even over the course of years. It could very easily get a bit taller and leggier, but it is very unlikely to get noticeably thicker. It may take on some appearance of age - bark texture, scars, etc., but it won't turn into a better trunk.

With broadleaf species that backbud well, the trunk is usually developed first (over years) through a combination of free growing, sacrifice branches, and occasional chops. Once the trunk is "done" all of the (sacrificial) branches may be cut off, and the second phase can begin: branch development . . .

 

[ColinFraser]

Does this mean I'm better off looking for better starting material if my plan is to experiment with styling and maybe get a nearly completed bonsai in 4-5 years?

In a word, yes. If you don't have the time, space, and desire to learn the separate art of growing prebonsai stock, then you'll likely be best served by purchasing a piece of quality prebonsai material and then focusing on developing and refining it. Different hobbyists enjoy different parts of the process, and not everyone is good at all the phases (nor do they need to be to enjoy the hobby) . . .

 

[maroun.c]

Understood.
Guess I'll repot all my trees to large pots and better soil and see how they develop. Good timing as I was about to discard these
will also look for couple good or better trunks so I can play with both growing and styling at the same time.
Hope to find some good stuff as its usually very limited here.
Thanks for all the help

 

[maroun.c]

In a word, yes. If you don't have the time, space, and desire to learn the separate art of growing prebonsai stock, then you'll likely be best served by purchasing a piece of quality prebonsai material and then focusing on developing and refining it. Different hobbyists enjoy different parts of the process, and not everyone is good at all the phases (nor do they need to be to enjoy the hobby) . . .

Nooo I want to learn it all. And got a bit of space to use and time can always be managed somehow. I'm even raising this very small olive to hopefully become a half decent bonsai in 5 years.

 

[ColinFraser]

Nooo I want to learn it all. And got a bit of space to use and time can always be managed somehow. I'm even raising this very small olive to hopefully become a half decent bonsai in 5 years.View attachment 112873

Here are a few I'm letting grow. For scale, those pots are about knee-high.

 

[maroun.c]

OK will get some pots about that size as well. Fertilize biweekly ? 20-20-20?
Thanks.

 

[ColinFraser]

OK will get some pots about that size as well. Fertilize biweekly ? 20-20-20?
Thanks.

I'm the wrong person to ask about fertilizer - I do it when I remember, with whatever I've got around . . .

 

[YukiShiro]

Here are a few I'm letting grow. For scale, those pots are about knee-high.
View attachment 112874

Hi Colin

those have very nice small leaves, are they dwarf cultivars or the species? I like the stark white trunks too

best regards
Herman

 

[Adair M]

I have a friend who works at a vineyard in California. They also have an olive orchard. They frequently remove old olive trees and convert the land to vineyard use.

So, my friend has access to olive stumps. Which he cuts up into manageable pieces. And roots them.

When he starts them, they're just a trunk stuck in the soil. Hardly any roots. No branches.

Here's one I got from him:



Here's what it looked like a year ago;



You can see they develop quickly.

They grow very vigorous when in good soil. Here is a picture before cut back:



To develop branches, let new growth extend, remove the leaves on the bottom of the branches. Wire, using rather thick aluminum, about 6 to 8 inches out. Cut back to where you ended your wire. Put in curves as well as lower the branches with the wire.

Wait 6 to 8 weeks, remove wire. Cut back.

Repeat!

My big Olive, I wired and cut back at the end of January. Wire removed and cut back in March. I rewired and cut back in early June. Wire removed and cut back early August.

 

[maroun.c]

Amazing tree you got there. I only hope I'll get to something that beautiful in yearsssss from now

OK so made a few calls to people with olive trees and asked them for nice trunks if they remove any. Long shot !

Went shopping and here are the only worth considering pieces with at least a bit of trunk material. Any advice if I should get any of these ?

1st one bit the most beautiful trunk but at least some trunk. It's dual thick branch and pretty low. What do you think should I get it ?


Another one with nice lower trunk which should get some nice radial roots? Already booked it but can switch to the one above or get both



Thanks for the help.

 

[ColinFraser]

those have very nice small leaves, are they dwarf cultivars or the species?

I think the scale of that last photo is decieving; those pots, trunks, and leaves are actually quite large - several times larger than the first chopped one I posted. It does have small leaves and is probably a seedling. The big ones are a common fruitless landscape variety with large leaves that do reduce acceptably (but never as well as the tiny leaves on that first one).

 

[Adair M]

Amazing tree you got there. I only hope I'll get to something that beautiful in yearsssss from now

OK so made a few calls to people with olive trees and asked them for nice trunks if they remove any. Long shot !

Went shopping and here are the only worth considering pieces with at least a bit of trunk material. Any advice if I should get any of these ?

1st one bit the most beautiful trunk but at least some trunk. It's dual thick branch and pretty low. What do you think should I get it ?
View attachment 112882

Another one with nice lower trunk which should get some nice radial roots? Already booked it but can switch to the one above or get both

View attachment 112883

Thanks for the help.

Yes, either of those would work well! I like the twin trunk one better.

You would want to chop both trunks, make the smaller one shorter than the fatter one. It should sprout new buds all over. Mine does.

Here's my smaller olive.

Before:



After:



It's still a "project" I'm working on. But you get the idea. It's also a twin trunk.

 

[armetisius]

Might not like it but here is my take on what needs doing.
Work a good gauge of wire Under that red line and twist it
as tightly as you can so that it will bind as the tree grows.
Take a fine blade and make little "flap cuts" along the roots
you have like at the green dots. Dust the flap cuts with a little
rooting hormone. Pot the whole thing up in a LARGE nursery
pot and grow it on for a few years. You can work your branches,
continue pulling them down and outward. But while it is growing
on in the nursery pot the wire will girdle the trunk and force
new roots just above it while those little flaps you cut will also
form roots along your roots giving you something to cut back to
in a few years.

 

[maroun.c]

I think the scale of that last photo is decieving; those pots, trunks, and leaves are actually quite large - several times larger than the first chopped one I posted. It does have small leaves and is probably a seedling. The big ones are a common fruitless landscape variety with large leaves that do reduce acceptably (but never as well as the tiny leaves on that first one).

Dunno the size of your bonsai Colin but it clearly is way larger than one I posted.
but yes it seems to have those larger leaves (my bonsai collection seem to be mixed some with larger and some with smaller leaves)
so here are some pics with a scale

Against one of my olives with smaller leaves.

Pot and trunk size


Leaf size of my small leaved olive


And the large leaf of this new olive



Looking at the trunk dimensions is this one I can skip further trunk thickening and move to styling ?
Taper looks fine on it but not sure about that thinner branch on the left

 

[ConorDash]

Amazing tree you got there. I only hope I'll get to something that beautiful in yearsssss from now

OK so made a few calls to people with olive trees and asked them for nice trunks if they remove any. Long shot !

Went shopping and here are the only worth considering pieces with at least a bit of trunk material. Any advice if I should get any of these ?

1st one bit the most beautiful trunk but at least some trunk. It's dual thick branch and pretty low. What do you think should I get it ?
View attachment 112882

Another one with nice lower trunk which should get some nice radial roots? Already booked it but can switch to the one above or get both

View attachment 112883

Thanks for the help.

They both look like good starting stock to me, I wish I had a place nearby where I can randomly stumble upon these things. They look good . I could see them becoming good looking bonsai in 3-4 years.