Help needed with Eu. Olive styling

[JudyB]

I picked this tree up for the bark, and the nebari. I have yet to find an angle that pleases me for a front. The bend for me is too abrupt and singular. Pay no attention to the bad soil, that is what it was in when I got it. I slip potted in the fall slightly larger pot... The roots are completely potbound into the old shape, I fear I'll have to do pie wedges to get rid of the old soil. But that's the easy part. I'll tilt the tree to lessen the bend as much as possible, and try to pull the apex back over the base a bit.

Every time I start to wire this tree, I get stuck. I can't choose a front, there are drawbacks to each front. And wiring and pruning will need to work from what is chosen. So I am asking for suggestions and comments to try to unfreeze my brain on this one.

The front as of now, has too much of a bend, and is too naked up the middle.

The rotated 1/8th clockwise is better, but big open spot then in the side, and the second branch from bottom on the right that could be wired to fill that hole would have to go back across the trunk.

The back as of now is an option, but there are two large pruning scars that could be partially visible from here.
Also with the back as front, it leans away from the viewer. IMO this is not a fatal flaw. I have a few trees that do this, and I don't see what all the fuss is to be honest. But every time I look at this side as front, that goes thru my head as the barrier.

The large pruning scar side... not.

 

[JudyB]

Then back to the other side counterclock to the front, the bend is even stronger from here.

Last pic, closeup of the branch that would be an eye-poker with the 1/8th clock turn, and across the trunk if wired to fill the obvious gap of foliage in this position.

I know the branches need to be pulled down and re- arranged, but not finding the front keeps stopping my progress.
I also wonder if thread grafting on olive is difficult? This may need to happen to fill that area that is too open for my eyes.

I know the branches need to be pulled down and re- arranged, but not finding the front keeps stopping my progress.
I also wonder if thread grafting on olive is difficult? This may need to happen to fill that area that is too open for my eyes.

I do not think this tree will ever be a great tree, but you have to love that bark. I just want to make the most of what it has even if it's never perfect. I'll be appreciative for any help.

 

[JudyB]

Found a much better photo for branch detail that I took in the fall before the slip pot...

FWIW, after I posted the novella above, I got off my metaphorical ass, and started to wire... It's better already, and I'm seeing some good options for the 1/8th turn clockwise opening up. Guess sometimes you should just "do it" as they say. Still open to ideas...

 

[rockm]

Niiice tree. FWIW, I think the top needs some drastic reduction. It's a bit too lanky to go with the excellent bottom third of the trunk and nebari.

 

[tanlu]

Judy, you have an amazing tree with TONES of options. Trees don't have to follow every bonsai rule, otherwise they would all look the same. I would look at (google image search) the shapes of ancient olive trees in nature or in old orchards in the Mediterranean, and derive inspiration from there. All the unnecessary branches provide you with many deadwood options, and most of the best olive bonsai are known for their beautifully carved deadwood. You now have a developed material that deserves your creative investment. Studying some of the olive bonsai videos made by Graham Potter is also a good idea.

T

 

[JudyB]

Rock I agree. Shortening as soon as the time is right, which is not till it's growing strongly this summer.

Tanlu, I am always of that mind about the rules for the most part. But sometimes, the first thing folks will tell me about my trees, is that it leans away... so it sticks in my head. I'll take a look at the Potter video's, I've watched many of his carving ones...
I've never seen a natural olive, maybe that is why I'm having trouble, most times I know what the tree looks like in nature.... so good suggestion.

 

[Attila Soos]

Hi Judy,

This is what I would do.
1) I would shorten the top by 1/3, so that the total height is 2/3 of what it is now. Of course, when you do that, you need to find a fitting leader that starts much lower. It's hard to tell from here what that leader would be, but olives can bud back very well from the upper part of trunk.

2) I would cut two wedges into the upper trunk, one about 3 inches above the bend, and second one a few inches higher. The purpose is to bend the upper part of the trunk into a more vertical position. The wedges should be narrow, and they should completely close when you do the bending. A 20 degree correction would be enough. If you haven't done this, somebody experienced should help you, so that you don't break the trunk.

This tree has the potential to be a very good one, but it needs some serious work.

As far as the roots are concerned, you only need to worry about one thing: to do the root-work when it gets very warm in your neck of the woods. Olives can lose 90% of their roots, and don't miss a thing, AS LONG as the temperature is warm enough. So, you can easily saw off at least the bottom half of the rootball with a straight cut.

 

[JudyB]

Thanks Attila.
The wedge cut is something that I've not done, at least not on a major part. I have made wedge cuts under a chinese elm branch to bend a heavy branch downward. But what you are proposing sounds much more scary than that.

I'll wait to do the rootwork till summer gets in full swing, that means the top chop needs to wait till then as well, correct? Or can I do that when new growth gets going?
I'll be able to help the roots along with bottom heat in the form of a heatmat as well.

I found one other possible side later today, that looks far more natural, I'll try to take a decent picture.
I think shortening it is brilliant, and will do wonders for it, I have many good choices for new leaders. That is one thing this tree has in abundance, lots of branching (except for the trench coat like opening....)

 

[Brian Underwood]

That olive has some seriously cool bark! So, there is nothing super interesting ABOVE that really cool bark, which is where I suggest cutting it back... I know it's drastic, but olives are incredibly strong and hard to kill, at least in my experience. You could even flat cut the bottom of the tree; http://www.dugzbonsai.com/olivehead2.htm I think it will be something very nice in the future, and I would love to have it in my own collection.

 

[stacy allen muse]

Sorry Judy, but I really got to agree about sadly removing the top...
Reason being, that for me it is like looking at two different trees.

Unless you are willing to wait for the rest of the trunk to advance in texture...

I would cut slightly above where Brian would, allowing you to retain the limb on the right.

Personally, I love your very first pic of this thread, and would use that as your front.

 

[Smoke]

I would leave just a little more and include the cool taper and directional change. Everything above as has been said is not useful on this tree.

 

[grouper52]

I agree with others, Judy - the top has to go, and the only question is how much, if any, of the trunk to leave after that splendid bark ends. The sudden jag in the trunk just above that is a nice feature, but with the next branches as far above that as they are, I'm not sure it's interesting enough to bother keeping it. That main cluster of branches coming off to the right down low might alone afford a splendid image if trained in an interesting way at this point and then allowed to grow and thicken in a grow pot over a period of years. Great potential with that base and bark!

 

[JudyB]

I took some more pics, it's raining so tried 2 different light sources, and will post both to see which ones show better.

There is a section above the cork part that is starting to cork up. I don't know how long it'll take it to become as good as the base, but I'll look to cut above this section. It is about where the wire is in the photos.

These show a 1/4 turn from the original front, and as such actually leans the tree toward the viewer, and would need to be tipped back a bit, as it's too much. There is a large branch that would need cut/wired as it's directly in front of this side, I've tried to pull it out of the way to see inside to what it would look like from this angle.

This does solve the bend issue, and may work as a front... What do you think?

I appreciate all the answers, Brian, Stacey, Smoke, and G52, you are all right, it's just a matter of which side and how much to cut. I think I want to keep the parts that are starting to cork for sure...

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Cut that baby off right above the two lower branches and develop from there.

 

[logan3]

I agree with the others, but if it where mine I think I might try to air layer the top, Hey 2 trees for the price of 1.

 

[JudyB]

I agree with the others, but if it where mine I think I might try to air layer the top, Hey 2 trees for the price of 1.

I like this idea, but am wondering if it'd be hard on a tree than needs drastic root work this year to air-layer it at the same time??? I don't want to compromise the health of the tree, should I do root work this year, and wait a year for air layer?

 

[Brian Underwood]

I think a lot of people really underestimate the toughness of olives. You could most likely do both at the same time, and I've heard many cases of people simply cutting a branch off and rooting it.

 

[JudyB]

Thanks Brian, just trying to make sure I don't screw this one up!

 

[Alex DeRuiter]

Hey Judy, have you seen this yet? http://www.dugzbonsai.com/olivehead1.htm -- it looks like they can take a beating! lol

Very nice tree, by the way. That nebari and bark have awesome character. I think that chopping it back to that first branch would be ideal, but I've been partial to fat shohins lately. I like Al's idea on where to chop. It seems like that would give it a great direction.

 

[JudyB]

Yeah, I did see that, - crazy!
I think I'm going to go with an air layer in the open space above Smoke's red line, then chop it back again if need be after separation. I appreciate everyone's help with this.