Help styling my Olive bonsais.

[maroun.c]

Hi All,
got a few olive bonsais that I think is the time to start working on shaping them. I'm still new to this and rather have your opinions on how to proceed with each to avoid making mistakes that cost me 1-2 year additional waiting time. They are still young trees and nothing fancy but I need to learn on them.
Now all these will be repotted for better soil next June as in my other thread where two of my collection including the nicest one I have, have gone south due to soil issues.
will go one at a time to have a focused discussion around each.
So tree Number 1
my second favorite, and I believe it has a bit of potential. this was pruned a bit around 3-4 months back and repoted into peat only. I know now that this isn't the best soil and will change it next year but worth mentioning that drainage is better than my old soil that nearly killed my other bonsais and I can see clearly better drainage. still the soil is wet for 4-5 days even afer medium watering.
I read that visible roots style doesn't fit olives but I kinda like the roots on this one (had a previous one with heavy aerial roots and I liked it a lot) so won't be chopping those roots. Not sure if the front one crossing the lateral one is a good thing or if i need to do something here?
I'm considering taking off some of the leaves or branches on the top as its a bit cluttered,maybe cutting off that lower branche growing tot he front. shortening those horizontal branches especially lower ones and wiring to point the a bit up towards the end?
Any suggestions or relevant comments are appreciated.


Thanks.

 

[sorce]

so won't be chopping those roots.

I think you should.
I'm 90% sure in a year or 2, you will feel the same.

I would build a fence of mesh, and ground later it at yellow, and chop it at red.

Sorce

 

[aml1014]

I think you should.
I'm 90% sure in a year or 2, you will feel the same.

I would build a fence of mesh, and ground later it at yellow, and chop it at red.

Sorce

Forget the virt? Lol

Aaron

 

[maroun.c]

Not Sure I'm getting where yellow and Red are?
is this just cause the roots are crossing or is it best not to have roots on olives?
How about the branches should I Work on those or let them be for some time to come?
Thanks

 

[sorce]

C'mon! You can't see it!?

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Sorce

 

[ConorDash]

View attachment 112604

Sorce

You didn't say why you would do that though .

That pot is the exact same one my cheap Chinese elm was purchased in. Is the soil ok in it? Cos if it was bought by the same place, my soil is terribly compact and solid.

I'm not a fan of the roots, but it is totally your decision. Where Sorce is suggesting to cut seems really low to me, but his eye is better than mine. I'd hate to cut that cos it seems like such a waste but I believe it's those kinds of things that, as beginners, we need to get over. Doesn't help if Sorce doesn't explain why though!

 

[sorce]

Good call CD!

It pretty much all has to do with this...

cost me 1-2 year additional waiting time.

Except waiting/wasting.

This tree is in the same stage as Marounc's other that has just one new bud sprouting, a lot of branching that just doesn't work, except this one has the roots too!

This one has the mad potential also though!

Especially since its an olive!

I personally wasted 1-2 years liking crazy roots, now I have Been working on creating good surface roots for 4-6 years, and I will likely be waiting at least 1-2 years before anything is good and visually strong.

Of course, it depends on your personal journey, but to me, not hating these roots in a year or 2 makes you one of those folks they talk about who, "practice bonsai one year, for forty years!" as in, never really progressing.

I think this is Judy's thread.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/help-needed-with-eu-olive-styling.7016/

Also @ColinFraser and @Adair M are familiar with olives....
I only know what I've read about them from them.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Ok, olives grow great roots! There's no reason to have poor roots on an olive. And those ARE poor roots!

Boon has a saying: "Great bonsai result from great health. Great health begins with great roots."

I would like to add: "Great roots grow in great soil".

Yours is not so great.

Olives like a well draining, open inorganic mix. From what I can see, your soil is a soggy, heavy organic mush. Just the opposite of what olives like.

In the right soil, olives will sprout roots on a pruned branch stuck in the soil! I'm muck like yours, the will rot.

Here is a picture of my shohin Olive's roots:



After that picture was taken, I pruned off half of what you can see! From underneath. I went up under, and exposed the bottom of the trunk. Leaving no downward growing roots, only lateral roots.

This picture shows it potted:



See the soil? It's equal parts akadama, lava, and pumice. But there are no organics. It's a small gravel. Water runs right thru it, so roots won't rot. Olives love it!

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for all the replies.
To answer the questions:
- Yes very bad soil. It has nearly killed 2 of my other bonsais and I had to emergency repot. This one and the others I will try to wait till June by being careful in watering and repot then.
Got another thread running about the soil and the reporting and hopefully my affected two will make it and that the 4 remaining a will go unaffected till June to be reported.

Guess what Source says makes sense long term. Although it's hard to chop that olive that high. Guess being a newbie you get excited about any roots even as in this case bad root growth. Adair olive is a perfect explanation maybe 10'years from now for my Olive.
Will get on it but just to make sure I understood right.
Still have to read about ground layering but what soil to use to get roots to grow? Peat moss, coco peat or sphagnum?
Do I need to cut outer layer of roots or will they grow roots from being covered? How long to wait before chopping?
do I chant tree soil before doing this or wait still till June ?
Last question, sorry many questions , is it worth trying to save the upper portion of the tree?
Thanks

 

[Adair M]

If you chop that top portion and stick it in good bonsai soil, or maybe in sand, it's likely to sprout roots and make a new tree for you! No kidding!

Peat moss, coco peat, spaghnum are all organic. Do not use any of them.

Use gravel. Small gravel.

Straight pumice would be great!

 

[sorce]

Maroun, if you Will ground layer that guy, just be sure to pick the absolute widest spot to put your top cut, that way you can get a good start to your flare at the base.

You can use a similar method to this,
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/radialayer™-a-season-saver.17046/

And make it easy for yourself to cut off the bottom half later.

I think @Smoke has a good ground layer method on his blog.

Sorce

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for all explanation and great help.
Added to late Feb early March schedule

Now let's move to the 2nd (couple more to go so sorry for all the trouble )

So plan for this one was to grow the upper leaves in a ball (I know not a bonsai style)and was wondering if I leave the leaves on the bottom or take out.
Now from what I've learned this far I anticipate a "chop at the red mark which is the top of the bottom ball"?
Any idea what to do with top part ? Leave branches to grow or style now ?

 

[ColinFraser]

Also @ColinFraser and @Adair M are familiar with olives....

Here's one I chopped today



The entire upper portion lacked taper and movement - so off with its head! I cut the removed top into two pieces and stuck them in some soil . . . I'm not sure why, since they'll still be just taperless sticks when they root . . .

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for sharing.
Can you please tell why you know they won't have taper when they grow again? Any tips on what to do to encourage taper as they grow ?
And any suggestions about my second bonsai im guessing it's headed for a chop ?
Thanks
Maroun

 

[ColinFraser]

Thanks for sharing.
Can you please tell why you know they won't have taper when they grow again? Any tips on what to do to encourage taper as they grow ?
And any suggestions about my second bonsai im guessing it's healed for a chop ?
Thanks
Maroun

If I was willing to grow them out and chop them back for years, I could grow the cuttings into tapered trunks, but that's true of any piece of stock, seedling, or cutting.
What I really meant was that when they root, they will still be just straight columns with branches sticking out - no real benefit over just starting with cheap nursery stock if I really want more . . .
Here are some links about taper and chopping that you might find interesting:
http://bonsaijournal.com/beginners-trunk-chop-101.php
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/maple-trunk-chopping/

The biggest issue with your second tree is probably the complete lack of branches in the middle - I think cutting the top back hard (or off entirety) might induce some buds in that section that you could then work with. That being said, I think the best course of action with these trees might be to just use them to learn about soil, repotting, watering, etc. Once you have a handle on that stuff, then you can get drastic with the restyling

 

[ColinFraser]

Oh, and yeah, those roots really are awful; sorry. When you're ready, they should be the first thing to go . . .

 

[maroun.c]

Thanks for all the info and links.

So for this one

I will air layer around early spring just below the upper portion and cut or maybe just cut it and see if it makes it. then will wait to see if the trunk will develp some branches in its now "mid portion" and if it doesn't I'll cut it just above the rounded base and work with the branches coming out of the base. I will keep the lower buds and allow to grow as they'll feed teh tree when the above foliage is removed.
did I get it right???
Thanks.
Maroun.

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for all the info and links.

So for this one

I will air layer around early spring just below the upper portion and cut or maybe just cut it and see if it makes it. then will wait to see if the trunk will develp some branches in its now "mid portion" and if it doesn't I'll cut it just above the rounded base and work with the branches coming out of the base. I will keep the lower buds and allow to grow as they'll feed teh tree when the above foliage is removed.
did I get it right???
Thanks.
Maroun.

Well...

That's one course of action. The first thing you need to do is get it in better soil. If the tree has good roots, it will be strong and you can do amazing things with it. Weak roots and it won't be strong, and you may not get the results you're hoping for.

 

[ConorDash]

If I was willing to grow them out and chop them back for years, I could grow the cuttings into tapered trunks, but that's true of any piece of stock, seedling, or cutting.
What I really meant was that when they root, they will still be just straight columns with branches sticking out - no real benefit over just starting with cheap nursery stock if I really want more . . .
Here are some links about taper and chopping that you might find interesting:
http://bonsaijournal.com/beginners-trunk-chop-101.php
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/maple-trunk-chopping/

The biggest issue with your second tree is probably the complete lack of branches in the middle - I think cutting the top back hard (or off entirety) might induce some buds in that section that you could then work with. That being said, I think the best course of action with these trees might be to just use them to learn about soil, repotting, watering, etc. Once you have a handle on that stuff, then you can get drastic with the restyling

I read both those links (cos that's just what I do, all day), and that second one is one I've read before. I think it's a really great explanation and helped me a lot with understanding trunk chops. Saying that, I don't think I'll ever be 100% till I actually go through the entire process but just wanted to say, that second link is definitely a good one!