Help please. New Chinese Elm. Poor health

[Shibui]

Okay well i read in a few forums that are fine to be kept indoors in the uk as long as they get a few hours direct sunlight. Ive seen photos of people who have kept Chinese Elms inside year round in the UK and their trees look perfectly fine and healthy.

It can be done but is not as easy as it sounds. For every success there are hundreds of failures. We see so many posts here from beginners with Chinese elm indoors who are having problems and need help.
You are welcome to try. You may even be one of the few who manage success.

 

[bennybonsai]

It can be done but is not as easy as it sounds. For every success there are hundreds of failures. We see so many posts here from beginners with Chinese elm indoors who are having problems and need help.
You are welcome to try. You may even be one of the few who manage success.

Okay well I'll have to have a think about it. Looking forward to seeing what the roots look like.

 

[bennybonsai]

Root condition

 

[leatherback]

Root conditionView attachment 526140

The roots were never the problem.
Never understand why people straightaway start repotting, out of season.

Patience is a virtue in bonsai

 

[bennybonsai]

The roots were never the problem.
Never understand why people straightaway start repotting, out of season.

Patience is a virtue in bonsai

Probably a mixture of inpatience, worry, and a big slice of Noob... we learn.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

We just reported a much bigger Chinese Elm at PBM the soil looked the same. The tree has had issues with proper O2/H2O exchange since in inventory.


Ended putting 1:2:2 Akadama:umice:lava. this help this tree exchange better.

From the looks of your tree it looks eerily similar likely needs same treatment.

The tree shown is weak. Imho this tree should go outside first in partial shade then slowly into full morning sun stay there once the weather in UK moderates.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bennybonsai]

We just reported a much bigger Chinese Elm at PBM the soil looked the same. The tree has had issues with proper O2/H2O exchange since in inventory.
View attachment 526182View attachment 526181

Ended putting 1:2:2 Akadama:umice:lava. this help this tree exchange better.

From the looks of your tree it looks eerily similar likely needs same treatment.

The tree shown is weak. Imho this tree should go outside first in partial shade then slowly into full morning sun stay there once the weather in UK moderates.

Cheers
DSD sends

Wow that's big! Well I'm really glad to hear that mine looks similar hopefully thats the problem. I left the tree outside today in partial shade after i changed the soil, Moved it into the garage behind glass doors for the night. It's Definitely going to be living outside in the fresh air from now on.

I checked out the PBM gallery some of the trees are insane they're fantastic. Great work.

Thanks so much for taking to the time comment and help its put ones mind at ease.

Cheers

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

You are most welcome.

It seems fair to say the new media, even with the addition is mostly compost. This is concerning as @Shibui alluded to above. Common practice is to use a more wholly inorganic mix.

The reason the big Chinese Elm shown was just about completely water washed was the media had a bark component that evolved into what could be considered as compost over time. This media wouldn’t drain properly. The interstitial spaces were filled up with the tiny particles. This no space for flushing the off gassed CO2 and replacing it with O2. This makes the media more acidic and unfriendly to the microorganisms most preferred by the trees. Hard for the roots to get O2 and really difficult to water properly.

Here’s an image of the media we removed. (We water wash and study media remnants, then heat and recycle media if possible). Note this media has a much higher inorganic component than the one shown for your tree plus the modification mentioned. It wasn’t working.

………Old Media…………………. one common bonsai mix



Not saying the tree will not live in the media chosen. Yet will not grow as robust over time.

If it were our tree we’d immediately pull the tree, carefully clean out the most of the media from the roots… as Chinese Elm roots are very fragile. Then repot in an organic media being as careful as possible. And in Seattle area put on a heat mat or heating bed until weather moderates.

But your tree, your choice.

btw: We use aluminum wire tie downs for Chinese Elms and azaleas and a few other trees rather than steel as I think @pandacular recommended. If not careful one can easy cut through the delicate surface roots with it.

For future goals, a couple ideas:

1. Grow the tree out with no pruning whatsoever until fall to gain strength. It should look like a shaggy dog if things go well. Sharpen those bonsai scissors, oil them up and put them away.

2. Water carefully. Let the media get near dry, then water again.

3. Start fertilization slow when weather abates. Perhaps miracle gro 1/2 strength to start and Osmocote 1/2 amount of pellets. See how the tree responds before upping the dose.

4. Join your local bonsai club. There will be experienced folks to help guide you through recovery and eventually styling.

5. Post the tree’s progress here! We love to see how folks are doing.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bennybonsai]

Sorry I'm a little confused if its more organic isnt drainage worse? I noticed in the rootball on mine had an almost dusty area, and it was very warm. That must be something to do with drainage right? is the media i repotted with today wrong then? ( Peat, Bark, and Kyodama) which media would you reccomend if so? Organic compost? I thought i would want the soil more on the airy perlite side for better drainage? My apologies with regards to my knowledge. If you could just let me know if you think this soil is wrong and if so should i change it again tomorrow? Or is that just asking for more trouble? And what exactly would you reccomend with regards to Organic media? I have a Notcutts garden centre opposite me. Here are some pics of what i planted into today.

I'm off to snooze town, I'll check back on here in the morning.

Many thanks

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

That was a typo sorry. Substitute inorganic.

Yes the media seems way too organic.

One thought likely @BobbyLane can help better from his side of the pond. He knows acceptable practice in the UK for your tree and which mixes are available.

Dusty soil likely old field soil.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bennybonsai]

Sorry I'm a little confused if its more organic isnt drainage worse? I noticed in the rootball on mine had an almost dusty area, and it was very warm. That must be something to do with drainage right? is the media i repotted with today wrong then? ( Peat, Bark, and Kyodama) which media would you reccomend if so? Organic compost? I thought i would want the soil more on the airy perlite side for better drainage? My apologies with regards to my knowledge. If you could just let me know if you think this soil is wrong and if so should i change it again tomorrow? Or is that just asking for more trouble? And what exactly would you reccomend with regards to Organic media? I have a Notcutts garden centre opposite me. Here are some pics of what i planted into today.

I'm off to snooze town, I'll check back on here in the morning.

Many thanksView attachment 526213View attachment 526212

The one with the golf balls in is the westland. The other is from Herons bonsai.

 

[bennybonsai]

That was a typo sorry. Substitute inorganic.

Yes the media seems way too organic.

One thought likely @BobbyLane can help better from his side of the pond. He knows acceptable practice in the UK for your tree and which mixes are available.

Dusty soil likely old field soil.

Cheers
DSD sends

Oh bugger! Okay. I cant do it today. Ill try get hold of this 1:2:2 Akadama:umice:lava

Cheers

 

[Shibui]

Organic components in bonsai mix are useful to hold water but will slowly decay over 3-5 years into much finer particles that will inhibit air exchange and water penetration. Provided you are able to repot more regularly or take care with watering as the compost ages that should not be a problem. Herons obviously manages to grow a lot of trees successfully in the soil they use and sell. My standard mix is 70% pine bark and I find more positives than negatives though it can cause problems after 3 years or so. In our hot, dry climate I have still not had the courage to go completely inorganic and don't really want to resort to components imported from the other side of the planet. I'd much rather work with locally available materials and modify care to suit the soil.

 

[bennybonsai]

Brilliant Shibui. Where abouts so you live? In that case i think im going to leave it in the media for the year. It should drain slightly better than the last. Its going to be an outside tree now and i'm not going touch it with regards to pruning until Autumn. Thanks for your comments.

 

[bennybonsai]

Sorry Shibui, we already spoke of where you're from. Australia!!!
I Got a bit muddled with the comments, brains fried from thinking about soil too much. Also never used a forum for anything.

Still toying with the idea of changing the soil again. It feels a little scary to plant something into zero organic matter. Almost seams too airy. But obviously i know nothing at the moment. Was thinking of trying the mix Deep Sea Diver mentioned. Will the tree be okay with another Soil change? If so when should i do it? I can't do it today as i have to order the media.

 

[Shibui]

It will not have grown any new roots in a day. For all intents and purposes the tree is asleep so another repot now won't do any more than the first one.
Even a week or so at your time of year probably won't make any difference but once the new roots start to grow it can be a different matter.
The extent of root reduction for the first repot may also have a bearing on how it will take another change of soil. Less root reduction means less problem with further soil change.

 

[bennybonsai]

My heads all over the gaff at the moment mate. I'll let you know what i decide. Yeww

 

[bennybonsai]

We just reported a much bigger Chinese Elm at PBM the soil looked the same. The tree has had issues with proper O2/H2O exchange since in inventory.
View attachment 526182View attachment 526181

Ended putting 1:2:2 Akadama:umice:lava. this help this tree exchange better.

From the looks of your tree it looks eerily similar likely needs same treatment.

The tree shown is weak. Imho this tree should go outside first in partial shade then slowly into full morning sun stay there once the weather in UK moderates.

Cheers
DSD sends

Maybe silly question Alert!!!!! But if im going to use Akadama:umice:lava. None of them have organic matter so why would you not just use one? Is it because they are different sizes and some hold moisture/nutrients differently? This is pretty much Hydroponic growing right?

 

[bennybonsai]

Ahh pummice is organic

 

[Srt8madness]

Maybe silly question Alert!!!!! But if im going to use Akadama:umice:lava. None of them have organic matter so why would you not just use one? Is it because they are different sizes and some hold moisture/nutrients differently? This is pretty much Hydroponic growing right?

You could just do akadama and pumice, the lava is mostly aesthetic. Akadama and pumice have different carbon exchange, and different hardnesses. They do different things.