Help please. New Chinese Elm. Poor health

[bennybonsai]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone could help? Im new to Bonsai. I purchased this Chinese Elm 1 week ago for half price as the leafs feel slightly dry almost crisp and yellowing a little and it had been in the garden centre 1 year 6 months. It hasnt been repotted in the time its been there and i couldnt find when it was last repotted before it got there. The moss smells a little off to me almost a mouldy smell, is that how its supposed to smell? There is also a root popping out of the side of the pot. Is the pooor health due to the moss being so old? Also does anyone have any idea how old it looks? Is it okay to repot this early in the year? Does the tree look over or underwatered? Many thanks and sorry for the million questions.

 

[Arbol]

Someone with more insight/experience can add to this but I think a couple things are at play here.

That soil looks very organic and the tree is probably pot bound. Lack of oxygenation to the roots might be causing the die back.

The tree might also be dropping leaves due to the stress of changing environments. I’ve heard of elms dropping all the leaves and then rebounding after becoming acclimated to their new environment.

If it’s kept strictly indoors I think now is a good time to repot (others should comment on this). The reason we don’t repot in winter is due to not being able to properly care for freezing temps. We don’t want those new roots to freeze. A repot into a more inorganic substrate is warranted.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Welcome to Bonsai Nut!

This is a great place to come to get help or help ours less knowledgeable in bonsai! That is a bit of a husky trunk?

Just a glance and the tree looks over pruned and in need of a repot…. and TLC for at least a year.

Hard to answer any further questions without some basic information.

What is your approximate location and USDA Zone.?
Please doubke click your icon the account details, scroll down and enter this information. Also please answer the following questions.

Where was the tree kept in the garden store?

Where are you presently keeping the tree?

What is your bonsai experience level?

cheers
DSD sends

 

[bennybonsai]

Someone with more insight/experience can add to this but I think a couple things are at play here.

That soil looks very organic and the tree is probably pot bound. Lack of oxygenation to the roots might be causing the die back.

The tree might also be dropping leaves due to the stress of changing environments. I’ve heard of elms dropping all the leaves and then rebounding after becoming acclimated to their new environment.

If it’s kept strictly indoors I think now is a good time to repot (others should comment on this). The reason we don’t repot in winter is due to not being able to properly care for freezing temps. We don’t want those new roots to freeze. A repot into a more inorganic substrate is warranted.

Hi Arbol,

Thanks for the advice its much appreciated. It is only kept indoors. I think a pot change or at least a root prune and soil change is due. I'll do it once i know i have the right soil. I purchased some indoor soil from herons Bonsai ( a great Nursery here in the uk) its made up of Peat, Bark, and Kyodama. It still looks very Organic so i may mix 20% westland bonsai mix with it as that mix looks slightly less organic, what do you think? Ill post some pics of the soil.

Many thanks

 

[Shibui]

First up, Chinese elm is (semi) deciduous. They are supposed to lose leaves in winter so lack of leaves is no problem for you at this time of year. Pics of branches are not quite clear enough to see if there are healthy new buds or shoots ready to grow.
The moss condition doesn't usually affect the tree unless the moss is poor because the soil is always wet. That can cause root rot which could possibly be the cause of the smell??
A couple of years between repots is no real problem but it would be a good plan to repot and change the potting soil to a more open mix at the first opportunity. With the bonsai living indoors you could probably repot any time from now through to spring when new shoots are emerging.

An open soil mix is usually easier to work with but trees will grow in any mix provided you can match watering and feeding to suit the soil and pot. Whatever soil you use you will need to adapt your care to that soil.

There is no real way to tell if the tree has been over or underwatered in the past except by looking close at the roots. Symptoms of both are similar and are also similar to a number of other conditions.

Lack of light is another cause for leaves dropping and lack of vigour. Most rooms seem bright and airy to us but are dark caves to most trees that have evolved to cope with full sun outdoors. A bright window ledge (not full west sun) or a grow light to supplement the amount and quality of light is usually useful, especially through short day winter season.

 

[bennybonsai]

Welcome to Bonsai Nut!

This is a great place to come to get help or help ours less knowledgeable in bonsai! That is a bit of a husky trunk?

Just a glance and the tree looks over pruned and in need of a repot…. and TLC for at least a year.

Hard to answer any further questions without some basic information.

What is your approximate location and USDA Zone.?
Please doubke click your icon the account details, scroll down and enter this information. Also please answer the following questions.

Where was the tree kept in the garden store?

Where are you presently keeping the tree?

What is your bonsai experience level?

cheers
DSD sends

Hi there,

Yes definitely over pruned.. i dont really know where to start with regards to shape to aim for. Im only a few months into bonsai haha so completely green (exuse the pun) though i was a gardening assistant for a couple years and have always been interested in plants. So have experience with planting and general plant care. Im in surrey uk zones 6-9. The tree was kept inside with a thin roof light running across the ceiling. The garden centre knew nothing about and im sure it hasnt been fed any nutrients in a year and a half. I currently have it inside on my window sill. I gave it a half dose of bonsai feed the day i got it and havent watered since. Ive had lots of new growth mainly on top since then. Ill post some pics. Would i be able to repot in same pot? I guess not repot just a soil change or does it need a bigger pot? Does this soil look okay to repot with? One is from Herons Bonsai (their indoor mix) Peat, Bark, and kyodama

Thanks so much for the help

 

[bennybonsai]

First up, Chinese elm is (semi) deciduous. They are supposed to lose leaves in winter so lack of leaves is no problem for you at this time of year. Pics of branches are not quite clear enough to see if there are healthy new buds or shoots ready to grow.
The moss condition doesn't usually affect the tree unless the moss is poor because the soil is always wet. That can cause root rot which could possibly be the cause of the smell??
A couple of years between repots is no real problem but it would be a good plan to repot and change the potting soil to a more open mix at the first opportunity. With the bonsai living indoors you could probably repot any time from now through to spring when new shoots are emerging.

An open soil mix is usually easier to work with but trees will grow in any mix provided you can match watering and feeding to suit the soil and pot. Whatever soil you use you will need to adapt your care to that soil.

There is no real way to tell if the tree has been over or underwatered in the past except by looking close at the roots. Symptoms of both are similar and are also similar to a number of other conditions.

Lack of light is another cause for leaves dropping and lack of vigour. Most rooms seem bright and airy to us but are dark caves to most trees that have evolved to cope with full sun outdoors. A bright window ledge (not full west sun) or a grow light to supplement the amount and quality of light is usually useful, especially through short day winter season.

 

[bennybonsai]

Okay brilliant thanks for the advice, im going to repot into a mixture of the two soils from the pics. How much do i have squash the soil into the pot and around the root system? I obviously want enough to support the tree so does it matter if I squash it in fairly compact?

Thanks again

 

[Shibui]

We usually push the new soil fairly tightly in amongst the roots to eliminate any air packets but I've found that's not really essential.
A small pot often won't hold enough soil to stabilise the tree, especially if it has fewer roots. It is usual to tie the tree down with copper wire though the holes in the pot.
Here's a reasonably comprehensive article from Bonsai tonight to show how it is done to look good. https://bonsaitonight.com/2016/12/27/secure-bonsai-pot/
If you don't have the materials available yet string tied round the pot and the trunk won't look as good or as professional but can hold the tree in place until the new roots grow into the new soil.

Assuming you know enough to remove most of the old soil from the root ball when repotting?
Cutting roots on Chinese elm is no problem so you can cut up to half the roots with no problem if that's necessary. Removing less would be advisable for a first attempt though.

 

[bennybonsai]

Awesome. Will that pot do for another year? I just want to get the soil changed and do a small root prune really.

 

[Shibui]

I suspect the existing pot will be sufficient for another year or 5.
Pot size is:
partly aesthetic - whether it looks good on the tree and;
partly culture - whether you can keep the tree watered and healthy in the small space. It is a bit easier indoors where hot summer days won't dry the soil in a few hours (forgot you are in England so you may disregard the hot days comment)

 

[bennybonsai]

I suspect the existing pot will be sufficient for another year or 5.
Pot size is:
partly aesthetic - whether it looks good on the tree and;
partly culture - whether you can keep the tree watered and healthy in the small space. It is a bit easier indoors where hot summer days won't dry the soil in a few hours (forgot you are in England so you may disregard the hot days comment)

Okay cool.

Yes Shibui we have about 5 hottish days a year haha. Where are you from? Thanks again for the help its much appreciated.

 

[Shibui]

Where are you from?

look for location in the profile panel at the left of every post.
Yackandandah is a small rural town in Victoria, South East Australia.

 

[bennybonsai]

Ah okay gotcha cheers.

Ah thats cool! I used to spend a lot of time on the sunny coast.

Take care

 

[pandacular]

If you don't have the materials available yet string tied round the pot and the trunk won't look as good or as professional but can hold the tree in place until the new roots grow into the new soil.

Small gauge steel wire is also very good for this and MUCH cheaper. Aluminum is technically usable, but challenging as it stretches and is more prone to breaking.

 

[leatherback]

You are in the UK. I would put the tree outside in a slightly sunny position. Protect from real frost. Then wait until march for repotting. Repotting now will not make the big difference, and outside it will get a nice period of cool weather.

It might be worth finding help for the repotting. Perhaps you can go to Herons for help. They know what they do, and seem to be quite service oriented.

 

[leatherback]

Awesome. Will that pot do for another year? I just want to get the soil changed and do a small root prune really.

Bonsai repotting normally is back into the original pot. So yes, it would

 

[bennybonsai]

You are in the UK. I would put the tree outside in a slightly sunny position. Protect from real frost. Then wait until march for repotting. Repotting now will not make the big difference, and outside it will get a nice period of cool weather.

It might be worth finding help for the repotting. Perhaps you can go to Herons for help. They know what they do, and seem to be quite service oriented.

Yeah we've had frost the last couple of nights and its been inside for a couple years so dont wanna take it outside. Its going to live on this window sill so dont wanna change hours of light etc.. so it wiil stay there. Does it need a cold snap then? I open the windows throughout the day

 

[leatherback]

Yeah we've had frost the last couple of nights and its been inside for a couple years so dont wanna take it outside.[snip]

I think it is a common misconception that bonsai are kept indoors. All trees do better outside, and it is only those that cannot handle frost that one should protect in winter. Naturally, with proper setup a lot can be done, but for the normal joe-bonsai-hobbiest outside it the place to grow healthy trees the easiest. Plants really do A LOT better if kept in their appropriate climate, which for elms is outside, with minimal protection from frost. As such, trees that are weak often recover much better in outdoor than indoor situations. As your tree has not had a proper fall, it is not prepared for frost. But besides frost, there is no reason to keep it inside.

I see lots of rain, and a risk of a dapple of frost next weekend. Do you have a shed where you can put it until spring?

Does it need a cold snap then? I open the windows throughout the day

Well.. Winter is comparable to sleep for a tree. It redistributes and restores and through this, revigorates. Refusing winter dormancy to plants that do normally get dormancy weakens the tree and over time the tree gets weaker. Chinese elms have the name that they can be kept indoors. Unfortunately, based on what I see passing on fora, this is not the reality. I rarely see chinese elms kept healthy long-term indoors. Just opening the window is not the same. At the bare minimum keep it in an unheated room.

Its going to live on this window sill

I recommend rethinking this

 

[bennybonsai]

Okay well i read in a few forums that are fine to be kept indoors in the uk as long as they get a few hours direct sunlight. Ive seen photos of people who have kept Chinese Elms inside year round in the UK and their trees look perfectly fine and healthy. This is the reason i got the Chinese Elm as thats where i wanted it in my room. If i have to put it outside then thats what i'll do but if it can survive inside i would rather that. Ill see how it fairs after a soil change and if its looking unhealthy in a few weeks ill move it outside. Thanks for your comments