Hardiness in colder climates

[silvertab]

Hi there, fairly new to bonsai and as I approach my first winter in Montreal (Zone 5b) I have a couple of questions!

My understanding is that even though a tree is supposed to be hardy up to zone 5 for example, since a bonsai is growing in a pot, chances are it won't make it through the winter unprotected since the roots are likely to freeze etc. Does that sound about right?

If that's the case, I am wondering if it would be safe for me to pick trees that are hardy to a much colder zone (for example larch, amur maple etc. which are zone 2 I think) and expect them to live through winter unprotected outside in a pot, or if they would still need protection?

I'm mostly curious because I don't really have a place to protect my trees for the winter (i.e. unheated garage or something like that where I could winter them properly). We have a small shed but it's unheated so, probably still very cold in the winter, I also have a basement, but it's heated, so again... no good!, So I'm thinking about finding species that could live through the Canadian winter!

Any help/info would be appreciated!

 

[JudyB]

Depends on the tree as you correctly assume. Trees in pots are about 1 zone less hardy than trees in the ground as a guideline. Of course if the tree isn't healthy or has had major work done to it, that can lessen it's ability to survive the cold winter. Your small shed may work for some things, at least it will keep the wind off them. Can you dig them into the ground and mulch them in? Also if you have ceramic pots, they can also be affected if they are not frost proof types of pots. Do you have anyone around you that can help guide you that understands your climate, and how to store trees in it?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Cold is not generally the problem. Wind and dessication is. Once your trees are dormant, they won't need any light until spring. You can put them in a window well, unheated shed or garage, lean-to, cold-frame, or simply put them under your bonsai shelving and wrap the area with painter's plastic. Some people simply mulch the pots into the ground while leaving the upper part of the tree exposed. If you go this route, and you get snow, you can pile snow on top of the tree - it is both a great insulator and prevents the tree from drying out.

 

[silvertab]

Thank you both for your replies!

Fortunately the only trees I have right now can stay inside for the winter; we have a huge south facing window, and right now I only have tropicals and a (small) Hinoki cypress, which I've read can be kept indoor for the winter, so it's not really a concern for my current trees. I was actually trying to gather info to figure out what trees I should get next considering the climate here and the lack of space to properly winterize trees that can't handle the cold winters here. It sounds like cold hardy trees (thinking, Zone 2-3) might be able to make it in my shed, protected from the wind, so I will consider that option! Thinking some more about this, we also have a crawl space which is kept to 50F in the winter, however, there's absolutely no light there (which sounds like it might not be an issue?) and it's not too easily accessible (i.e. very frequent watering might be problematic).

 

[JudyB]

I may be incorrect here, but I do not think that your Hinoki can live without a dormancy period.

The crawl space is too warm, to make a dormancy for your trees, it must stay below 40. But no light is exactly what you want, your trees do not need or want light if they are dormant.

 

[f1pt4]

Thank you both for your replies!

Fortunately the only trees I have right now can stay inside for the winter; we have a huge south facing window, and right now I only have tropicals and a (small) Hinoki cypress, which I've read can be kept indoor for the winter, so it's not really a concern for my current trees. I was actually trying to gather info to figure out what trees I should get next considering the climate here and the lack of space to properly winterize trees that can't handle the cold winters here. It sounds like cold hardy trees (thinking, Zone 2-3) might be able to make it in my shed, protected from the wind, so I will consider that option! Thinking some more about this, we also have a crawl space which is kept to 50F in the winter, however, there's absolutely no light there (which sounds like it might not be an issue?) and it's not too easily accessible (i.e. very frequent watering might be problematic).

Your hinoki needs a dormancy period. As per @JudyB observation. It should do fine in your shed.

I know of people who take insulation styrofoam, the 1" - 2" kind used to insulate walls, and make boxes out of them, and over winter their trees in them, on their balconies. Could be something you might be able to do. Definitely keep the wind off. Dump snow on the trees as it arrives.. and we all know Montreal gets a ton of snow.

Your crawlspace is too warm for dormancy.

 

[silvertab]

I could've sworn I read somewhere that hinokis could be kept indoor during winter but now I can't find the info so it's probably safe to assume that my memory is faulty!
Unfortunately, although I do control the thermostat for that crawl space, having it too cold would mean very cold floors and much higher electricity bills, so I guess that makes the shed is a more interesting option!
Thank you both for the valuable tips! We do get a lot of snow most years in Montreal and I know it has great insulating properties so I'll keep that in mind!

 

[f1pt4]

I could've sworn I read somewhere that hinokis could be kept indoor during winter but now I can't find the info so it's probably safe to assume that my memory is faulty!
Unfortunately, although I do control the thermostat for that crawl space, having it too cold would mean very cold floors and much higher electricity bills, so I guess that makes the shed is a more interesting option!
Thank you both for the valuable tips! We do get a lot of snow most years in Montreal and I know it has great insulating properties so I'll keep that in mind!

I have a friend who lives in Quebec City and over winters on a roof top. Once the first snow falls, his trees get buried, and don't show up again until the spring. So far so good.

Snow is your friend not foe.

 

[Soldano666]

I've been working on replacing most of my collection with real hardy stuff, like you said, larch, amur, mugo pine, scots pine, juniper, American horn beam. I typically pull the pots close to the foundation of the house and just put the pot on the ground. I'm into the extra cold hardy trees for me. Less protecrion needed... . We have a problem with voles chewing bark if we bury pots up to the rim.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Your memory ain't going you remebered reading that Bullshit about hinoki somewhere!

No worries!

Sorce

 

[silvertab]

Welcome to Crazy!

Your memory ain't going you remebered reading that Bullshit about hinoki somewhere!

Haha sure enough, after some more googling, found it. It’s actually mentioned on a website that sells them as bonsais. I’m going to assume that it’s just a tactic to sell more hehe.

I've been working on replacing most of my collection with real hardy stuff, like you said, larch, amur, mugo pine, scots pine, juniper, American horn beam.

Yup, sounds like the way to go for me until I’m better equipped to “fight” this harsh winter! One thing I’m wondering; does the the “no light required during dormant period” apply to conifers too? Unlike deciduous, they still have foliage during winter!

 

[Cadillactaste]

I would get a thermometer with an alarm for on warm winter days you may need to open the shed door. Sounds strange...but trust me...it happens.

 

[GrimLore]

I would get a thermometer with an alarm for on warm winter days you may need to open the shed door. Sounds strange...but trust me...it happens.

Darlene is 100% on that - My shed can and does often approach 45F+ when it is 30F outside. Never got to it this year but I intend to install a hydraulic vent that is temperature controlled.

Grimmy

 

[A. Gorilla]

I've been working on replacing most of my collection with real hardy stuff, like you said, larch, amur, mugo pine, scots pine, juniper, American horn beam. I typically pull the pots close to the foundation of the house and just put the pot on the ground. I'm into the extra cold hardy trees for me. Less protecrion needed... . We have a problem with voles chewing bark if we bury pots up to the rim.

You and me both.

I don't know if it was here or elsewhere, but there was once a mega thread about why American bonsai is/was the delayed stepchild of the world. People put forth things about Americans being spoiled brats, instant gratification, no long cultural history of the arts etc etc.

What was strangely left out was the individual psychological malaise associated with "traditional" Japanese species going tits up in vast swaths of North America. How can you refine an art when 75% of the species in bonsai books buckle under their first inner-continental winter. Chicago isn't Okinawa. Minnesota isn't Holland. Maine isn't Italy. Not by a long shot. How many potentially talented individuals in Minnesota just said "fuck it" decades ago. Or Poland for that matter. Are they just European morons, or are their winters more ball-busting than England?

And is it a co-inky-dink that places like the southeast, California, and pacific northwest seem to have the preponderance of bonsai-stuff going on?

 

[Paradox]

Hinoki needs dormancy.

If you put your trees inside the shed or anywhere where there is no rain or snow, you will need to check them at least once a week to see if they need water. They will need it less than in summer but they still will need it.

 

[silvertab]

What was strangely left out was the individual psychological malaise associated with "traditional" Japanese species going tits up in vast swaths of North America. How can you refine an art when 75% of the species in bonsai books buckle under their first inner-continental winter.

hehe I guess it's a good thing that I find a lot of the cold-hardy species (especially larch, mugo pines and Amur Maples) very attractive! I personally love Canadian winters and would rather embrace it than try to fight it! I guess the downside is that I'll be a bit limited in the variety of species I can grow... and as you mentioned, most of the books being about Japanese species etc. there's probably less valuable info to be found about the very cold-hardy species... but it sounds like an interesting challenge to me more than a downside... then again we'll see if my opinion changes after I've killed a bunch of trees :\

 

[A. Gorilla]

hehe I guess it's a good thing that I find a lot of the cold-hardy species (especially larch, mugo pines and Amur Maples) very attractive! I personally love Canadian winters and would rather embrace it than try to fight it! I guess the downside is that I'll be a bit limited in the variety of species I can grow... and as you mentioned, most of the books being about Japanese species etc. there's probably less valuable info to be found about the very cold-hardy species... but it sounds like an interesting challenge to me more than a downside... then again we'll see if my opinion changes after I've killed a bunch of trees :\

I mean, what's the alternative? Keep buying a new Japanese maple every year?

We can easily deal with Ponderosa pine, Limber Pine, Austrian Black Pine, Scots Pine, Mugo Pine, White Spruce, Blue Spruce, Rocky Mountain Juniper, Larch, Thuja, Amur Maple, Pyrus, Malus, Ulmus, Taxus, Euonymous, amongst some others I'm sure I forgot. That's enough to keep one busy and sane about winters.

 

[silvertab]

I mean, what's the alternative? Keep buying a new Japanese maple every year?

We can easily deal with Ponderosa pine, Limber Pine, Austrian Black Pine, Scots Pine, Mugo Pine, White Spruce, Blue Spruce, Rocky Mountain Juniper, Larch, Thuja, Amur Maple, Pyrus, Malus, Ulmus, Taxus, Euonymous, amongst some others I'm sure I forgot. That's enough to keep one busy and sane about winters.

And now I'll be reading up on all those species! Thanks for the list!

The irony is that there's a big, gorgeous japanese maple in my front yard taunting me! (We bought this house recently and it just so happens that there was a very nice, although very neglected, landscaping job done! We have a big Japanese maple, HUGE prunus schuberts and hibiscus, a really thick-trunk yew, and a bunch of other really old conifers; cedars, junipers etc... now if I just have to convince my wife that the yard will still be attractive without'em! )

 

[A. Gorilla]

Post some pictures of what's in your hard. Close up of the trunks as they emerge from the ground. Let's see what you got.

I dug up a Euonymous last year, and comparing it to google images, there is a very short list of trees which have a better trunk. Blind luck. Now I gotta do something with it.

 

[silvertab]

Sure thing! I'll just point out that this all came with the house, so I'm not responsible for anything good/bad that you see in these pics haha! (We're planing a major fall cleanup however because like I said, everything's been really neglected for years).

Here's a couple (more coming):

Japanese maple (the light was fighting me on this one, sorry for the terrible pic). Looks like something bad is up with the leaves!


Unknown tree


I'll post the yew and some more soon...