H.D. Material VS established pre-bonsai

[Silentrunning]

That one really hurt me...as I sit here in my office I can see a tear in the finger depression of the "H" key and the "K" key. You don't even know me. I would say there are about fifty on this forum that I know personally, they know who I am and how I conduct my life and how I do bonsai. Its not anything like I see here......

And I guess that’s what confuses me........

 

[JudyB]

So if the - BONES - are the most important part, and you
purchase a tree with all the bones in place, next is a
Green Hat.

WRONG.

same old same old....

 

[Anthony]

Judy,

we are not all cut from the same cloth.
It is what keeps the world going round.

Guess who just gave the game away [ it is not you Judy ]

Good Day
Anthony

 

[JudyB]

Judy,

we are not all cut from the same cloth.
It is what keeps the world going round.

Guess who just gave the game away [ it is not you Judy ]

Good Day
Anthony

You misunderstand my point. I have a good grip on the idea that there are many ways to do things, do you? You hammer it with every post, that it's just a hobby, not art, not lasting, and to buy something is anathema to the hobby instead of building it from seed or seedling. Fine, go ahead and continue preaching that, as it's what you believe. (along with your idea of compost as soil..., it works for you, but won't work for most)

But when you say that buying a good trunk or piece of stock to work into a bonsai will ultimately only produce a green helmet, I feel like I have to call you on that.

 

[jeanluc83]

So if the - BONES - are the most important part, and you
purchase a tree with all the bones in place, next is a
Green Hat.

I would argue that the last 10% is the most important and the hardest. If you end up with a "green hat" then you don't have the skill necessary to do the work.

 

[Bananaman]

I think you have been watching too many late night infomercials where you buy X product and it magically transforms your life.

I'm sorry bonsai doesn't work that way. Only bad things happen fast.

Ryan's video subscription has been around for what a year and a half or so. Assuming you started in the beginning that gives you about a year of development and that is assuming the timing was appropriate to apply a given technique. The development in a year can be very subtle. In fact most of the improvements will not be fully realized for several years.

I'll also contend that much of the improvement may be on a smaller scale. It might be a better technique for anchoring guy wires that you hadn't thought of or a better way to apply raffia. It is hardly the earth shattering transformation that you seam to want.

Bingo...you made my point for me.... and you see how I did that...given enough time and getting people to think and maybe get a little pissed off, they come to realize that when questioned about what they are spending their money for .. in the big picture its about guy wires and raffia???

Ever wonder why every business in the world wants you to do a survey? Burger King, Home Depot, Taco Bell, Hell even my dentist and I took some money out of the bank the other day to buy a tree and I got a survey for conducting a routine transaction I have done all my life.

Its marketing and doing whatever possible to get into your cyber world. Get that email address at all costs. Marketing, its the way of the future..how long before your favorite Bonsai learning site sells you out for marketing. Just to get a cell Phone you have to agree to let them contact you whenever they want. I get about 15 calls a day for trips, insurance, solar systems, and all kinds of crap.

ahhh the mighty dollar and what people will do for it...

 

[Bananaman]

And I guess that’s what confuses me........

Join the crowd dude

 

[Anthony]

Judy,

there are two levels of Bonsai down here,
the not rich and the very rich.

Trinidad ,drills, refines and sells oil / gas and is much like a mini
Kuwait or Brunei.

What we teach is how to do and keep it affordable and what to
focus the practice towards.

Now the well off here, import from China and sometimes Japan.
The trees usually are in the $1,000,00 US and above bracket.
Sometimes they call to invite K over and ask frequently
would he teach the gardener how to.
Since they love the ornaments, but don't have the time.

The less than well off start clubs, which fail because they
cannot afford much more than seeds, and pots would kill them.

So we teach affordable Bonsai. Of course the skill at Design
will make the difference.

Compost provides the microbes and gravel the hydroponic aspect.
I believe you would agree on that.

When the less fortunate, grow a seedling, they have to understand
that it is living thing and change is inevitable.
Otherwise disappointment follows, they are not stable like
Oil paintings.

Then we have the ones who imagine a business .......................

The idea behind sending Owen the Sub-Tropical, was to help
him familiarize himself with the tropics.
And if the clubs had stabilised, bring him down, let him
see the island, and see if he liked it.
Introduce him to the well off,and he would have had a chance
to work down here permanently, as you can in Japan.

He would have been the first, and that allows a great deal
of flexibility.
Hope this helps.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[rockm]

“Price has never been the issue” Not exactly what you have been implying in past posts.

“The plant is the issue” A plant that is well on its way to being bonsai ain’t going to be cheap.

Al, you remind me of the people in my Hot Rod group that would buy cars that were 90% finished and throw a coat of paint on it and say they built the car. Then they would laugh at us that spent nights building our cars from the ground up and have cars that were less than perfect. I will admit that you are heads and shoulders above anything I will ever be in bonsai, I just wish you were someone approachable, but since you “have earned the right to be an asshole”, I will just glean what I can from your posts but I will never respect you.

This is part of the problem. The "Do it yourself" mentality of building your own bonsai from the ground up is a pretty new concept in bonsai. In Japan (and I hate when people say that, but it has a lot of meaning here), the thought that you are the sole owner and developer of a bonsai is kind of laughable. If you're successful in making anything worthwhile, you are but A SINGLE STOP on its way to becoming a bonsai. The attitude that you are going to develop "my own tree" is kind of an unrealistic and blinkered approach. You can only take things so far, until you die.

Since bonsai are living trees, not tools, or cars or aquariums, they have a life span measured sometimes in centuries. Japanese bonsai people understand this and have absolutely no problem with it. Take a look at some of the Japanese sites and the "low end" stuff offered there (not talking about the mallsai, pop-bonsai fad stuff, but more traditional sources) A lot of the lower end stock offered there is vastly ahead of Wally World pines and maples-VASTLY ahead and not all that expensive.

In Japan no one laughs at someone for buying sometimes hugely expensive, centuries old trees that have been worked on by dozens of people over their lifetime.

They laugh at you for being so arrogant in saying that you, and you alone, are going to create a bonsai from the ground up. In working on such young material, what you are doing is setting it up for the next generation of bonsaiists if you're successful.

Like I've said in other threads, more established stock is probably not for beginners, but more for those who have got a good handle on care, like those who have kept trees alive and thriving for about five years.

 

[James W.]

My experience, I realize I may not be typical.
About 12 years ago I decided I wanted to try to do bonsai. I have a lot of gardening experience so I think I know everything about growing plants. I bought a couple of books and spent months reading whatever I could find on the internet. I went to a local bonsai show and saw a demonstration. I paid good attention to what "everyone" says are the best for bonsai and went shopping. I want to make good bonsai, so I tried to get some good material. I spent a bunch of money. And killed everything. I killed trees in every possible way. So I got some more. And killed them. At this point (in retrospect) I was so ignorant that I didn't even know what questions to ask. I decided to try cheaper trees, and found out I don't even know enough to keep nursery trees alive. At this point I have burned up a couple thousand dollars (don't tell my wife) and have nothing to show for it.
I continued my research and talked to some local bonsai guys. I decided to figure out what kind of tree I can keep alive. Since then I have been starting and buying a lot of little trees. I have some in the ground. I even started a bunch of JBP this spring. I still kill a lot of trees, but not as quickly as I used to. Right now I would be insane to spend $$$ on any kind of maple, I have killed every one I touched. I ought to be smart enough to grow azaleas, but I have only 2 survivors. Elms are working OK for me so far. Surprisingly, a few mugo pines and a couple DAS haven't died yet.
Right now, I'm thinking I might know enough to get something with some potential and try to style it. But I'm probably wrong and I certainly am not going to spend any serious money to find out.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

It seems odd to me that barely anyone has discussed the value of watching a bonsai artist design artistic trees. That is the biggest value of Mirai Live to me. It seems like lots of people are more fixated on just figuring out how to put raffia on or any other technical information. Yea I can pick up most of that from other sources. But I can’t watch Ryan Neil design trees the way that Ryan Neil designs Ryan Neil trees anywhere else. That is the value of Mirai live to me. What good is all the technical information if I have no design inspiration to help me make more than mediocre trees.

Buy good stock too. I’m three years in on doing bonsai seriously, I haven’t bought hardly any expensive stock. I have collected some decent material. I wasn’t going to buy expensive stock my first couple years in, I wouldn’t have know what I was looking for. I wanted to get a feel for different species and gain a foundation of technical skills. This year I bought my first stock over 300 dollars.

Starting out with lesser trees helps you learn what is actually good stock when you go to look for it. Also helps you not butcher it once you get your hands on it.

Or better yet, do whatever you want to do, who gives a shit, there are no bonsai police in your backyard. ?

 

[Nybonsai12]

Whether you buy starter material or more developed stock someone here will have a problem with what you are doing.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Whether you buy starter material or more developed stock someone here will have a problem with what you are doing.

YUP ?

 

[coh]

It seems odd to me that barely anyone has discussed the value of watching a bonsai artist design artistic trees. That is the biggest value of Mirai Live to me. It seems like lots of people are more fixated on just figuring out how to put raffia on or any other technical information. Yea I can pick up most of that from other sources. But I can’t watch Ryan Neil design trees the way that Ryan Neil designs Ryan Neil trees anywhere else. That is the value of Mirai live to me. What good is all the technical information if I have no design inspiration to help me make more than mediocre trees.

LOL...I've mentioned that numerous times. Of course, now I'm on bananaheads ignore list but before that, the response was always "show me these mirai inspired trees".

Or better yet, do whatever you want to do, who gives a shit, there are no bonsai police in your backyard. ?

True, they're all here

 

[Bananaman]

Whether you buy starter material or more developed stock someone here will have a problem with what you are doing.

Only if you act like a know it all. There are plenty of people at this site that are new or don’t have much experience and they never say boo. It’s only the ones that come in and just stir crap to stir crap because they don’t like it that you have or do something they can’t and are resentful about it. There are a few that dog everything I do or say for nothing more than just being a cheese ball. That’s it.

One thing I have done here over the last couple of years is rather than always trying to defend myself about everything I have to say I just put them on ignore. That way I don’t look at their stuff and comment and even though they still come to mine and try to stir crap I stay above it by never reading it. There some pretty awful things said recently in a couple threads I started. Mean personal things said about me that people say without even knowing you. I don’t get the personal stuff. The banana hammock, banana smoker stuff is so childish it diminishes what that person has to say because people see thru the veils contempt for the person not the subject. The subject gets short shrift around here because frankly the forum this year is about 80-20 newbies that don’t know anything yet. But the internet allows each of us to sound like we know everything. It’s when I ask for trees that I get the rude silence!!!!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You are basically buying time when you purchase prebonsai material is how I look at it

Yes. The only thing I would add is the qualifier "when you purchase GOOD prebonsai material". With experience you learn to separate the good from the bad. I have seen some trees labeled "prebonsai" that were far from it. Notice how just about every bonsai listed on eBay is labeled "specimen bonsai"? I don't even know that MEANS I associate specimens with doctors' offices When I see the term specimen I usually associate it with meaning "need to get a sucker to overpay for this".

 

[Bonsai Nut]

One thing that I will say specifically about Home Depot (or other big box home goods retailer) is that they don't grow their own trees. They buy them from local vendors. The local vendors, in order to maintain the Home Depot account, try as best as possible to deliver a consistent nursery product, and nursery product tends to be directly opposite what we would want to work with for bonsai. Low branches? Interesting surface roots? Twisted or bent trunk? These are all anaethma to a commercial nursery grower. What you WANT to do is go see the nursery garbage pile Or those trees buried in the back that have been growing untended for years because they have problems and missed the truck to the Home Depot. That is why I still go to nurseries on occasion - but I go to the real nurseries. And I ask them if they have any ugly trees, and they are only more than happy to show me if they can get rid of some

 

[coh]

I've pretty much stopped looking for trees at most nurseries (including Lowes, HD, etc). Mostly what they sell now is "sticks in a pot", multiple skinny trunks/cuttings put in a pot. There is a lot of foliage and it gives the same illusion as a larger trunked tree (in leaf) but worthless for bonsai. No longer worth the time and effort.

Older independent nurseries still sometimes have good stuff that's been in a pot for a long time, but even at those places the stock is tending more toward what you see at Lowes and HD.

 

[Vance Wood]

One of the Senior members of this site has alluded to the fact that if you want a quality bonsai you have to start with high quality, costly base material. I will respectfully disagree. If I spend 10 or 15 years developing a good base tree I surely would hope a noobie (like myself) wouldn’t get his hands on it. I would hope that someone with vast experience would finish the tree to be a winner. For someone to discourage or insult a person for beginning with a malsai or H.D. Juniper is just not in the best interest of our craft. We all will kill trees in the beginning. Let’s kill basic trees as opposed to quality trees until we have a better understanding of the craft.

This has been a common mantra around here for a long time. It's not wrong but it is kind of elitist in nature setting a parameter that takes more disposable wealth than many, if not most of us do not posses. What is the difference between nursery material and pre-bonsai? There is no such thing as pre-bonsai seeds, and the only thing that is special about pre-bonsai is the fact that the tree even if obtained from the dreaded box store nursery originally, has been cared for and cultivated by someone who is focused on bonsai. That tree as it turns out gains interest through the years and can become quite costly to you if you take a fancy to it and see a bonsai in it. Some people in American bonsai seem to think any solution to obtaining material for bonsai, less than spending a lot of money or a lot of time and travel to obtain material, is not really doing bonsai. Some how all of those nursery grown trees converted into bonsai are less than acceptable in their eyes. They are somehow fraudulant like a Tanuki graft. The trees have not been acquired in the proper way.

Three trees: #1 Hinoki Cypress started from a $6.99 nursery tree obtained for a demonstration in 1994
#2 Shimpaku Juniper from a nursery tree obtained in 2000 for $20.00
#3 Shaimpaku Juniper from the same batch of nursery trees in 2000 for $20.00
Are any of these trees masterpieces? No of course not but I have won awards with two of them over the years. Most important; I am having fun doing and learning how to do bonsai.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

One instance when I will also buy less expensive trees... when I have no experience with them.

For example, the GSBF show brings in vendors from all over the US. If a vendor has an interesting tree that I'm not sure will live in Southern California, I will buy a cheaper tree than I might otherwise prefer. This last year I bought a pygmy cypress from Bob Shimon. It's a dwarf coastal tree that grows about 8 hours drive north of here. He had some larger trees I was tempted with - but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't do a "hinoki cypress die in one season no matter what you do" on me.

Another example is with notoriously difficult stock like manzanita. I bought two different manzanita species last Fall to experiment with. They made it through the winter no problem - and they both just instantly died the moment our first summer sun hit. Glad I didn't pay $300 each for them Going to go back to the same nursery, buy more, and try something different.