Good Internet Advice

[onlyrey]

Vance,

That is my view. Not everybody can start with great material... Maybe that POS tree will be enough to keep the person's interest long enough so that they develop the patience and skill that are necessary for bonsai.

Think of a little child's drawing, I would never tell a kid that his/her drawing needs to be erased or redrawn because it doesn't have the potential to become a work of art. Over his/her lifetime, the child will have many opportunities to make at the very least a nice drawing. I truly believe this analogy applies to persons and their first little tree or mallsai.

Maybe, if somebody had told you the truth many years ago, you wouldn't be doing bonsai at all.

OK, lets analyze your statement "I hate the take your tree and plant it on (in?) the ground for a few years. When someone comes up with a literal stick in a pot, without a single branch, what do you tell them? Put it in a larger pot and let it grow? Is that not a kin to planting it in the ground except it is not as fast, they will have more years to become disappointed? Or----Wire the tree and put some bends in the trunk and watch it grow? Or---It is a wonderful tree worthy of Masahiko Kimura (who ever he is) in a couple of years you ought to be proud of selecting it? Or--it's a POS, toss it out and start over? There is no way of telling them the truth----without telling them the truth. Why should this be such a bad thing. I also think it is unfair of you to characterize this kind of advise as being rude, mean and nasty, a personal attack on the newbie. I have never seen anyone who has advised one of these individuals subscribe to this kind of treatment. I wish someone had told me the truth years ago, it could have saved me a number of years more than I care to admit.

 

[grouper52]

It's not ground rules, grouper. They were suggestions,

Not to be contrary, but I think in this case it's a matter of semantics, and these suggestions are in keeping with another similar attempt in the "Bad Advice" thread to set ground rules for posting advice, IIRC.

I am just hoping my post might encourage the arm chair generals to come help us out on the front a bit more often before suggesting how we ought to be doing it. The suggestions are a bit idealistic for the site I'm talking about, where the ratio of newby questions to active senior members is quite burdensome. We do what we can, and of course are already trying to do what BNut talked about most of the time, but we could use some help to do it up better. Better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.

grouper52

 

[Dwight]

Something we've seemed to miss. There is a hugh range of " beginners ". There is the rank beginner who saw a malsai display and couldn't resist all the way to the person who has observed and read for years and is an accomplished horticulturist ( who also can't spell ). When I first posted I was treated as a rank beginner. It was assumed I knew nothing. WRONG. I hed been observing for 40 yrs and did know a little. Still , I had no usefull experience so I was/am a neophite at least. I resented being treated like a highschool dropout and almost left the hobby completely. Honestly it was Grouper who stepped in and treated me like a student rather than a PIA. He respected my questions , even when they were completely idiotic and showed a level of patience very few of the " experts " were willing to display. There really are some who should be told to put it into the ground but a way should be found which does not insult them. How ? I don't know. I spent 36 years as a high school teacher and I still can't tell most posters on many forumns what I really think of their trees so I say nothing even though I know they need to be told to throw the damn thing away. Then some fool comes along and tells them what a wonderfull tree it is. Does this help ? Absolutely not. False praise is much worse than true constructive criticism. I wonder if this is why some sites are so full of sticks in pots ????

 

[grouper52]

Thanks for the kind words, Dwight.

The end of your post reminded me of a great quote from Norman Vincent Peale (sp?): "Most people would rather be ruined with praise than saved by criticism". It's often a tough call to know what will help most when communicating over the internet.

grouper52

 

[Anonymous User]

Here are some general (self-created) guidelines for giving good advice on the Internet:

#1: Know your audience. Who are you giving advice to? What is their familiarity with the subject matter? How capable are they of following your advice? How simple or complex should your instructions be?

#2: Know your level of expertise. Make sure you differentiate between fact and assumption. Try to keep your comments to actual experience versus hearsay. In cases where you provide assumptions or opinions, clearly label them as such.

#3: Understand the advice being asked for. If someone's tree is dying and they ask help to save it, don't overshoot and provide them the advice necessary to turn their tree into a show-winning bonsai.

#4: Be humble and non-confrontational. No one knows everything, so don't act like you do.

#5: Provide examples, photos, links, etc when appropriate. With the advent of the Internet, it is very easy to provide additional information. A detailed explanation, with resource links, is often refered back to, and becomes part of the knowledge base of the Internet.

#6: Don't feel like you have to respond to everything. Respond to those subjects that interest you. You will give better information, and probably spend more time doing so. Don't respond if you only feel like giving a one or two word answer (unless the subject clearly warrants it.)

Some things are worth repeating.


Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

Thanks for the kind words, Dwight.

The end of your post reminded me of a great quote from Norman Vincent Peale (sp?): "Most people would rather be ruined with praise than saved by criticism". It's often a tough call to know what will help most when communicating over the internet.

grouper52

I absolutely love that quote, I must remember it

 

[Graydon]

it's an oxymoron

Years ago when I "got" in to bonsai I didn't come to these forums or have a local club to go to for advice/support/hugs/false truth. I had books to look at and a few copies of Bonsai Today. I would go outside and look at my "trees" and look at the books. It didn't take me very long before I realized I had some almost nice topiary and a few immature trees in oversized pots. I also had a bunch of crap that didn't fit in to either of those categories. The only good thing I had was a desire to have trees that looked like the photos in those books.

I think what I am trying to communicate is that I neither sought nor received any advice whatsoever. I was isolated and the only person I could look to for the truth was myself. It worked pretty well, motivating me to cull my collection and seek out some better material. I found a source for more books, proper soil, real bonsai tools and so forth.

If someone were to have been blunt but honest and honorable in guiding me years ago I would have been better off. I am referring to the stick in a pot comments. The find some good material comments. The stop playing with it comments. I had the desire and still do. I needed the jump start.

Good internet advice is an oxymoron (a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction).

At least we are discussing something. One day we may discuss bonsai (what a thought huh?). Until then I appreciate all of your input and comments.

 

[Anonymous User]

How does a beginner learn?

By asking questions.

How do we help a beginner?

By asking questions.

This is often overlooked by many people, in their rush to help someone they go right on in with the advice without fully realizing the problem and sometimes without understanding the question. Questions must be asked in order for quality, educational advice to be given.

A beginner with a stick in a pot should be given advice on what he is seeking, even if it is just keeping the stick in the bonsai pot alive, so we tell them to remove the glued on rocks and stop watering it at 3pm sharp every day as the directions say. But they should also be given the options that all of us had to learn, the option of creating a larger trunk, taper, ramification, etc. And they should also be told how to do this, just not that they need it.

The beginner with the stick should not be told that they have a excellent bonsai and that there is no room for improvement, neither should they be told to throw it away and start over. No matter how little they know, at one time, we all knew less.

I agree with Bnut and Boondock, drawings and pictures help a lot, sometimes I have found that they are the only way to express an idea accurately and quickly.

Beginners should not be coddled, they should not be lied to, and they should not be destroyed either. Many of the very experienced have stopped giving advice to the rank beginners, this job falls to those of lessor experience, but it comes with responsibility, the responsibility to help the person grow like we help our trees grow, slowly, with patience, with good food. How would our trees respond if we rushed them, fed them only half of what they need, or grew tired of them wanting the same things over and over?


Will

 

[agraham]

Graydon,

I think my bonsai experience parallels yours.Looking back,I would have benefited greatly from a mentor/guide....Still would for that matter.

I wonder though,would I have continued if when first bitten with the bonsai bug,I had posted a stick in a pot that I had some pride in and someone had bluntly stated that it would never amount to anything."Put it the ground and grow it out" is excellent advice in many cases.Without offering an alternative to nurture the CREATIVE juices though,I wonder how many would put it in the ground and forget about it.2(or 3 or 10) years waiting for a tree to become work ready is a long time for those juices to lay dormant.Not everyone can afford to buy a design ready tree.

Some would suggest collecting a tree in the meantime.But then others will chime in and say "collecting is for experienced folk"."Don't work on a collected tree for 2 years".And,we're right back where we started from.

I don't have an answer for this conundrum.My response to a "stick in a pot" would be to work with it,knowing that it will probably never be a masterpiece.As skills and horticultural knowledge is gained,hopefully a deeper interest in bonsai develops.

I think the blunt advice will work for those who have a strong interest already,but it scares the more casually interested off.Some might think this is a good thing.But I don't think that everyone who enjoys bonsai or even the thought of trying their hand at it has to share the same passion I do for the art.The trick is to know who is one and who is the other.An almost impossible task without knowing a bit more about the person.Especially on the internet.

andy

 

[bretts]

The very first tree I posted on the internet I got the "Take it out of that pot it will never grow in that"
I had purchased a small hawthorn.... I just thought here is the thread!
http://internetbonsaiclub.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=132&topic=16235.0

Oh thats a bit embarrassing

Now many may say there is some good advice there.
Put Bnuts comment to the thread though.
#3: Understand the advice being asked for. If someone's tree is dying and they ask help to save it, don't overshoot and provide them the advice necessary to turn their tree into a show-winning bonsai.

The question I was trying to get answerd was whether I could make the bottom branches to catch up to the top branches. The lesson I could have learned in this instance would have been pruning techniques to increase branch size. If I took it back out of the pot and stick it in the ground what am I learning on now? If I chop the tree back to nothing and grow it out for a couple of years what am I learning on now.

I was very annoyed by this thread at the time. A member who tried to help was also shot down as not being worthy.
I took alot of time choosing repotting and styling this tree. Notice the left and right first branch and then branch at the back for depth...lol
The advice I was after was how to create an apex for this tree.
I see a tree that could have taught me many things before I spent money on better meterial. In the future it could have been planted out. I still see today a cute tree that I may have treasured in the future never leaving a bonsai pot.
I continue to see members giving all the advice under the sun and never answer the question that was originally asked.


The pic below is Craig Cousins first attempt at wiring. He would not have learnt the many techniques that he tried on this tree if he had agreed to chop it at the base and stick it in the ground. I think the end result is a tree that any bonsaist would be proud to state was there first attempt at bonsai.

 

[Dwight]

What a classic example !!!! LOL Brett , do you still have thet tree. I'd like to see it now as obviously you've stuck with it. And Luc was being rather polite in his advice.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were all asked about our background in bonsai in the first post we submitted. So simple a way of determining what level of advice to give.

 

[BONSAI_OUTLAW]

What a classic example !!!! LOL Brett , do you still have thet tree. I'd like to see it now as obviously you've stuck with it. And Luc was being rather polite in his advice.

Wouldn't it be nice if we were all asked about our background in bonsai in the first post we submitted. So simple a way of determining what level of advice to give.

LOL...Yeah Dwight...Maybe bnut should set up a "rep points" system. LOL

 

[Chris Johnston]

Heeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyy what a great idea! We could race to see who is first to become "A Glorious Beacon of Light!"

 

[Anonymous User]

Back to the topic at hand...

Brent,

Certainly we all start knowing nothing and that nothing is built upon, it grows if given the chance. The problem arises when the building materials used are sub-standard. You overcame some bad experiences, but you obviously found good solid advice and experience somewhere to build upon.



Will

 

[John Hill]

Years ago when I "got" in to bonsai I didn't come to these forums or have a local club to go to for advice/support/hugs/false truth. I had books to look at and a few copies of Bonsai Today. I would go outside and look at my "trees" and look at the books. It didn't take me very long before I realized I had some almost nice topiary and a few immature trees in oversized pots. I also had a bunch of crap that didn't fit in to either of those categories. The only good thing I had was a desire to have trees that looked like the photos in those books.

I think what I am trying to communicate is that I neither sought nor received any advice whatsoever. I was isolated and the only person I could look to for the truth was myself. It worked pretty well, motivating me to cull my collection and seek out some better material. I found a source for more books, proper soil, real bonsai tools and so forth.

If someone were to have been blunt but honest and honorable in guiding me years ago I would have been better off. I am referring to the stick in a pot comments. The find some good material comments. The stop playing with it comments. I had the desire and still do. I needed the jump start.

Good internet advice is an oxymoron (a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction).

At least we are discussing something. One day we may discuss bonsai (what a thought huh?). Until then I appreciate all of your input and comments.

I have to go with what Graydon is saying,
I too have learned by trail and error. I know most will say put it in the ground and grow it. But why not tell them to grow it and shape it to a pleasing composition. Then they will grow and learn! Bonsai is the art of illusion,,right? so why can't a stick in a pot be an illusion? Why can't you train a stick in a pot to look like a little tree? I know it may be little but it is still a little tree given the illusion of a big tree.
I think that the beginner is more often thinking bonsai is a plant that was bought from the local home depot or lowes so they know not what they have. They want to learn more so they come to the internet forums to learn and find out that they just get more confused by all the advice given from those that read alot and know how the plant should be taken care of but really don't know the aspects of styling and seeing the tree within the tree.
Some advice is given to help them to keep the poor thing alive and other advice is given to make it a big bonsai, so where do we draw the line?
I myself am guilty of this.
I practiced photo virtuals to try and show what I am seeing in their material( I know some do not like virtuals) but this is a fantastic tool for me.

I know there are many that started bonsai a few years ago and have read much about certain species of tree and give great advice on horticultural aspects but kinda lack in the styling aspects. I myself am learning daily. Each tree is a different lesson, even with the same species of tree. So the beginner is smart enough to know what advice to take and maybe they don't. But taken bad advice may not be bad advice for that person that was giving it by his trail and error. It may work great for them and not for the norm?
I read alot of advice on these forums and maybe I take a few and they work and maybe they don't,,But that is a lesson learned, Old T&E. He seems to pop his head up all the time.
So the beginner may take bad advice from one and lose a tree but he has learned from it and this is good. A lesson learned for sure. A lesson that that beginner will not forget. He is climbing the ladder of bonsai

A Friend in bonsai
John

 

[Michael Milligan]

Great discussion happening here!

I notice a lot of people here that helped me graduate from a totally green newbie to a totally green novice.

I’m sure ALL of use have seen questions like “can you grow bonsai from seed?”, “why is my tree dying?”, and so on, and so on… about a million times. I’m noticing two camps of advice givers online… those like Graydon or Vance that don’t feel the need or desire to help out the totally new, and then those like Grouper52 and myself that do. Indeed, it is only the really new that I can help.

And then there is the class of people that aren’t really giving advice but think they are. Yes, back to the “stick in a pot thing”…. When somebody asks how to style and is told not to, but to plant the tree on which they spent $30 and time choosing. Like set out by Bnut, know ones audience and the type of information they are looking for. Anyone who sticks with bonsai will soon learn the importance of a good trunk---no need to diminish their enthusiasm. Advice, while true in a sense, reminds me of when one man asked another “what time is it?” and the second man answers “time to get a watch!” The answer is true. But is it the information that the person was looking for? It is the most helpful thing that could be said.

I understand not wanting to answer a bunch of super noob question. If one doesn’t want to, then don’t. We’ve all just left simple questions for others to answer, but if we do choose to answer I think a matter of etiquette, and good old fashion consideration to give positive, encouraging advice.

I would like to give 2 examples to consider:

Firstly, myself. I had a few houseplants and some questions that I posted on botanical forum. They were answered by some great people that have surely answered the same thing a hundred times. My emergent interest in plants led to bonsai. I’ve only had an interest in bonsai for about a year now. That interest started as some stupid little questions that were answered so that I could move on to the more complex stuff. Now, while still a novice, my understanding of both the art and science of bonsai has grown by leaps and bounds. I’ve planted a bunch of tree seeds and 10-20 years from now there is no reason why some of these can’t be blue-ribbon trees if I stick with it.

Another good example (I hope he is flattered by this) is a young man who frequents the bonsaisite forum, Yenling. He is much younger then most of the people on any of these forums, but if you go there and search his posts you will see a steady progression from totally simple to increasingly advanced question. All in a couple months. His eagerness fostered rather then stifled. I have not idea if his trees will be any good, but he is eager and enjoys the hobby immensely.

Just some thoughts,
Michael

 

[agraham]

To get off the "stick in a pot" advice thing, sorta......I see a general problem in giving any advice on the internet.Perhaps I am stupid,but I get a whole different take on what Graydon was saying than what John did.So either I misunderstood what Graydon was trying to say,or John did...or I misunderstood John's point.I see this happen a lot....hmmmmm......maybe it is just me.Or,maybe it is really difficult for some to express themselves with the written word.And just as difficult for others to grasp what others are trying to say.We all learn differently and express ourselves differently.Sometimes,there is just a disconnect.....did I say I wasn't the best communicator in the world?...if not,it should be obvious by now.

andy

 

[Graydon]

To get off the "stick in a pot" advice thing, sorta......I see a general problem in giving any advice on the internet.Perhaps I am stupid,but I get a whole different take on what Graydon was saying than what John did.So either I misunderstood what Graydon was trying to say,or John did...or I misunderstood John's point.I see this happen a lot....hmmmmm......maybe it is just me.Or,maybe it is really difficult for some to express themselves with the written word.And just as difficult for others to grasp what others are trying to say.We all learn differently and express ourselves differently.Sometimes,there is just a disconnect.....did I say I wasn't the best communicator in the world?...if not,it should be obvious by now.

andy

Huh?

When I submitted a simple one word answer I got this ->

The following errors occurred when this message was submitted:
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

Better? This illustrates another point and that is sometimes a simple response is better than a long one. Sometimes simple answers are better than long ones, especially when they are not needed.

 

[Michael Milligan]

To get off the "stick in a pot" advice thing, sorta......I see a general problem in giving any advice on the internet.Perhaps I am stupid,but I get a whole different take on what Graydon was saying than what John did.So either I misunderstood what Graydon was trying to say,or John did...or I misunderstood John's point.I see this happen a lot....hmmmmm......maybe it is just me.Or,maybe it is really difficult for some to express themselves with the written word.And just as difficult for others to grasp what others are trying to say.We all learn differently and express ourselves differently.Sometimes,there is just a disconnect.....did I say I wasn't the best communicator in the world?...if not,it should be obvious by now.

andy

Ummm... what was your take on what? How was it different then John's take? Graydon says a lot (most of it is really good), but to what are you refering?

Moving on--I understand your point about how it is hard to communicate effectively over the internet. But this has nothing to do with electronic-interconnected –etc, and everything to do with it being written rather then spoken medium. Written language is very, very different than spoken language. Most people we meet online are victims of one public school system or another (myself included). There, the only audience is the teacher (an educated person who already knows and/or can ask what the author means). Online we find people of all writing abilities interacting with people of all reading abilities.

It is often said that you can’t tell a persons tone from writing. This is of course false, as imparting correct tone is much a part of the craft/artistry of writing. Can’t tell Shakespeare’s tone? Please. The problem lies in people often unintentionally imparting the wrong tone and thus people face faulty accusations of rudeness or being argumentative or dismissive, etc.

This problem is certainly not exclusive to bonsai.

Again, to step away from the “stick in a pot” thing… to the best of all your knowledge has the idea of an internet bonsai mentor program been discussed? Nothing fancy or formal. Just a way of getting the super-noob stuff out of the way ASAP for a new person?

 

[agraham]

ok.....I'll try.

I understood Graydon to be saying that he wished or at least, would have been better off if someone would have been upfront early and told him to get rid of the sticks in pots.

quote.."If someone were to have been blunt but honest and honorable in guiding me years ago I would have been better off. I am referring to the stick in a pot comments. The find some good material comments. The stop playing with it comments. I had the desire and still do. I needed the jump start."

And then John said..."I have to go with what Graydon is saying,...."

But then said....."I know most will say put it in the ground and grow it. But why not tell them to grow it and shape it to a pleasing composition. Then they will grow and learn! "

Like I said....maybe i misunderstood one or the other.I'm not pointing fingers....I just think that the internet....all written communication is difficult.The fact that people come and go from the conversation makes it even more so.Annyway...that's my take on one dificulty on giving internet advice.

andy