Bad Advice on the Internet

[AndyWilson]

Hey all,

As those who have read that particular thread will see, after making a shrewd observation (imho) i asked the chap how often he was watering said serissa as i suspected he was over watering... we never got a response as far as i know and so most of us presumed he was watering too much, lots of moss, really small pot, plant being kept indoors and he said he was watering often. The symptoms look to me like they 'could possibly be' root rot. wouldn't be able to tell though unless we took the plant out as will suggested.

Just my two cents worth

 

[Chris Johnston]

I've heard my share of bad advice and hopefully haven't given much. I always try to couch my advice with the phrase I learned from Dave DeGroot. Regardless of the bonsai question, the answer should start with, "that depends..."

How far do we go with this? This is an all-too-common complaint about forums and chat. It's as if the complainers (in many personae, times, and places) want to be set up as the arbiters of "correct information." Will, I have even seen you give some terrifically bad advice. For example:

http://www.bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279

So what is bad advice? In my opinion, it might be relying too much on "old school" teachings and books that were begun in the 1950s and use words like "leaf mold" and "river sand" and have as many recipes for proper soil mix as there are species of trees.

How do we correct this? Do we have a large governing body with an accepted practices list that must approve all posts? If so, then Vance's advice to repot in summer would certainly be banned. Doesn't mean he doesn't have a point, it just means that many "authorities" would flag it as bad advice.

I think the best we can do is try to correct things as we have time, energy, and interest in them.

 

[Anonymous User]

But,I think it is obvious that Will started this thread to specifically slam another person and another site.It's a shame he didn't take the complaint to one of his own forums instead of trashing yours with the same vindictiveness he accuses others of.I would think that a site called The Knowledge of Bonsai would be the perfect place to warn people of and discuss incorrect internet advice.

And yet,Will picked(as an example) the one person and forum which he knew would stir up the most discussion(debate,arguing).Typical Will.

Actually, I neither named the forum nor the person where the bad advice was given. Please re-read my first posts and my others, at no time did I name the forum, the advice giver, nor did I so much as give the post title. Let's stick to the facts and the facts are that your post and others here proves the point, those who dare to point out poor advice are often attacked for it, no wonder there is so much that goes unchallenged.

However, jumping to such conclusions is indeed typical as you so kindly showed us.

Will, I have even seen you give some terrifically bad advice. For example:

http://www.bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279

Chris, certainly you can find something worse than me stating that potting a tree in a bonsai pot that is not ready for fine development is unwise. Come on, that was disappointing.





Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Sorry, my reference was your suggestion that he put the tree in the ground.

 

[Anonymous User]

As those who have read that particular thread will see, after making a shrewd observation (imho) i asked the chap how often he was watering said serissa as i suspected he was over watering... we never got a response as far as i know ....

I also suspect he was over-watering, most newcomers do so at the first signs of stress on a tree. This is why my first advice to such cases is DO NOT TRY TO SAVE IT BY BABYING IT! Don't over-water, don't feed, don't move it a quadrillion times, and for God's sake don't go and re-pot it.

You hit the nail right on the head, no one ever got a response from the newcomer, as far as anyone knows he was watering the tree with motor oil. That's my point exactly, one I made at the very beginning of this thread, diagnose first, prescribe second. With only a guess as to what the problem was, he was told to re-pot his tree.

I grow some serissas, not many, but those I do have thrive. My leaves just don't magically drop when I change locations, they turn brown and then drop, not all at once mind you, but when they are good and ready to. I have posted pictures of some of my serissas, by no means sticks in a pot, I grow mine in fines, that's right, fines from shifting my soil, and I have never had a case of root rot in all my time as a bonsaist...not one single case with serissas or any other species for that matter. In fact I have only seen one verified case of root rot at all and believe me, you don't forget the smell.

Telling a person to re-pot his bonsai based solely on a picture is careless and irresponsible. The right questions were asked in this case, the problem is that in a rush to "help a beginner" the cure was given before the problem was known for sure.

As much as some would love it to be, this thread is not about me, my banning, my forums, my dog named Kitty, my traffic records, criminal records, my shoe size, my garden, or such...it is about bad advice on the internet going unchecked or when check....well take a look here.


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Sorry, my reference was your suggestion that he put the tree in the ground.

I think this debate was hashed over to death on that thread, I hate to have to go though the whole thing again here...instead why don't we just refer back to that thread and my statements there, I still stand by them. A tree should only go into a bonsai pot that only has fine development left to do on it, trying to thicken branches /trunks/ etc in a bonsai pot is self-defeating. If that is bad advice, I need more of it.


Will

 

[agraham]

You didn't need to name anyone Will.It was obvious to any who frequent forums.We are after all ,a relatively small community of internet forum people.I already knew(or had a very good idea)what post you were referring to.Your self defensive answer to my query as to why you did not respond directly to the "bad" advice was proof enough.You may not have intended it.I can't say with any certainty that you did.Perhaps I misunderstand you.If so,I am sorry.

At any rate,there does NOT seem to be a concensus that the advice in question was out of line.So who was jumping on whom?

There still remains some unanswered questions though.

Why would you post this complaint on this forum instead of KOB?If it's worth discussing it should be worth discussing on a forum dedicated to correct knowledge.Maybe the thread title could be...."WarningWarning..bad and incorrect information can be found on all other sites except for those policed by Will Heath"

And,....Why didn't you use Vance's response in the linked thread as an example of bad advice and incorrect information?

I feel sorry for Bnut.Everybody seems to bring their "i get no respect" threads to this site.It's sad that you have 2 websites that you "run" and you bring your petty complaints to this one.I see it as thinking that you and yours are too good to put up with the belly aching,but this is a site not worthy of the same respect.

andy

 

[Anonymous User]

The fact remains that I did everything within my power to not name forums and/or authors. I did not link to the post, I did not give the thread title, I did not directly quote anyone, and I certainly did not directly or indirectly lead anyone to the actual bad advice. The way you are stomping your feet and crying, I may as well have. You see, I thought the advice was bad, however I did not think anyone needed to be horsewhipped for it, hence my discretion. In fact, if it wasn't for you and the author of the bad advice posting here and spilling the beans, the majority of the readers would still not know where the bad advice was posted our who posted it. Maybe then this topic would still be about bad advice on the internet and how to deal with it instead of about Will Heath once again.

There still remains some unanswered questions though.

Why would you post this complaint on this forum instead of KOB?If it's worth discussing it should be worth discussing on a forum dedicated to correct knowledge.Maybe the thread title could be...."WarningWarning..bad and incorrect information can be found on all other sites except for those policed by Will Heath"

This is bordering on the insane....

Am I not allowed to post topics here at Bnut, or should I save all my posts for KoB and AoB? Should I send you any post, article, reply, or thread first for your approval before I hit the submit button? I posted it here to spark conversation and also because I am in the habit of posting here, starting threads here, and conversing here. Frankly I posted it here because I felt it was important, should I save threads that are important to me for other forums?

Think about this, had I have posted it at KoB as suggested, I am certain the topic would have been kept on track and personal unsubstantiated accusations would have been kept out of it. With the history of such on this forum, I knew full well what such a post would do, bring the heat down on me once again. But I posted it anyhow.

As far as your warning goes...please feel free to challenge any information anywhere, on sites I am involved with, or not...you'll only help the community in the long run.

Now we all know your advice to the newcomer would have been to simply throw the tree away, as you stated.,...sorry but that is also poor advice to give a beginner.

And,....Why didn't you use Vance's response in the linked thread as an example of bad advice and incorrect information?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I feel sorry for Bnut.Everybody seems to bring their "i get no respect" threads to this site.It's sad that you have 2 websites that you "run" and you bring your petty complaints to this one.I see it as thinking that you and yours are too good to put up with the belly aching,but this is a site not worthy of the same respect.

May I suggest actually sticking to the topic for a change and leaving your personal feelings on the other side of the monitor you are staring at? Seriously, the pettiness is in your unfounded presumptions which are based on nothing more than your own insincerities. Stop acting like the Pharisees and debate the issue. not the author, if you are capable.


Will

 

[agraham]

Will said....."Think about this, had I have posted it at KoB as suggested, I am certain the topic would have been kept on track and personal unsubstantiated accusations would have been keep out of it. With the history of such on this forum, I knew full well what such a post would do, bring the heat down on me once again. But I posted it anyhow."

Will,that is exactly my point.Why didn't you post it on KOB?It would have been discussed civily there.

As far as I know,you have every right to post anything you want here.That's between you and Bnut.I guess I just think that if you had something important and beneficial to say you would share it at your own site.If your comment on bad advice was making this forum better,perhaps it would make yours better also?

andy

 

[Anonymous User]

Andy,

There are many things you will not see me do, I will not post the same thread on all the forums, I will not initiate an direct attack on anyone, and I will never purposely incite an argument.

However, I will post what I want, when I want, where I want, without the need to answer to anyone for it....... But since you seem to have a strange need to know my business, it has been stated many times before that AoB and KoB are not discussion forums, they were not designed to be, in fact they were decidedly designed not to be. (They do however have a purpose and fill a niche in the community) As I have stated here in the past, Bnut is a discussion forum, I like to discuss bonsai related issues, hence I post, read, and visit Bnut.

If the article section is ever worked out, I will most likely post articles here as I do at AoB, KoB, and other forums. Please also make a mental note of the fact that I also post on other bonsai forums as well. I'll let you know when and if I decide that the topic here is deserving of an article.

Sorry, but you're stuck with me here.

Now, can we actually discuss the topic and not me, where I post, what I post, what forums I am involved with, or other non-topic related issues?


Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Honestly, except for the heat that I missed and was edited, I thought this one was pretty civil.

 

[FlyBri]

Actually, I neither named the forum nor the person where the bad advice was given. Please re-read my first posts and my others, at no time did I name the forum, the advice giver, nor did I so much as give the post title.

Gday Will & Co!

I can only assume that you are referring to this thread at bonsaiTALK. (Don't be afraid to refer and/or link to bonsaiTALK here - look how often you've referred/linked to AoB and KnoB in your numerous posts here, without so much as a peep of complaint from BNut.

)

This thread is supposedly about bad Bonsai advice going unchallenged within the Internet Bonsai community. By not linking to the example of "bad advice" in question, you do a grave disservice to the good folks here at BNut. Without a link, all we have is your word that the advice is "unwise, dangerous to the tree, and could be very discouraging to the person receiving such advice", as we don't have access to the context in which the advice has been given. Put up a link, and let the BNut membership debate whether or not this is truly "bad advice" (as we've already seen here, there is by no means a consensus that this is the case.)

Thanks.

Fly.

 

[Smoke]

Who cares? Does Will really care if this tree is saved. Does Joanie really care if this tree is saved. I sure don't. I feel the best thing for it was to die. It was ugly and not very good as bonsai material anyway. It may have been good Chinese material under the corect hands, but this person killed it anyway and we'll never know if they posessed any Penjing skills.

Further, why does every thread that has some plea for help have to have a reply. Some of these people need to learn from the school of hard knocks and the only way to get that education is to break a few eggs.

There is another thread at that web site about whether to chop some foreign material. Just chop the damn thing and stick your neck out of the damn shell. If the turtle never sticks his neck out, he will never get anywhere.

The most reliable information on the internet will not save a dieing tree. Saving a dieing tree has to come with experience and practise like all aspects of bonsai. I feel that Will is correct and Joanie is correct. Correct for one reason and that is because they have both given some ideas that "the" person might do. Either of them right or wrong will probably not save the tree. Someone said "dead trees are the tuition we pay for our bonsai learning experience" or something like that. Of course this means that the "person" needs to learn something from the experience or it was all in vain and subject to repete again.

Good growing, Al

 

[agraham]

Like I said Will.As far as I'm concerned,you are welcome to post anywhere you want to.

Let's review this thread though to see how it developed.

You stated your case and bemoaned the fact that no one had critsized the "bad" advice.
I asked why you hadn't.
You went into an explanation of how you were unfairly banned from that site,and though you denied ill feelings....your wording sorta,kinda hinted that you may have just an itsy bitsy bit of disdain for the site and it's administrator/moderators.
I said ok...and then said i didn't think the advice was so bad.
You replied in what i took as a condescending manner.You also put words into my mouth as to what I supposedly said should be done.
Graydon and grog chimed in with some pretty basic and rational statements.
You come back with your persecution idea......"reprisals" as if anyone who disagrees with you is not only ignorant but out to get you?
smoke comes in a bemoans the fact that everyone doesn't understand who the experts are right away(basically)and how respect is not given to those who have been around a long time.
I make a runon post about the ignorance of people(even "experts") concerning root rot and it's causes.I also affirm that I would throw the tree away.I NEVER said that I would advise a beginner to throw his away.
grog,globalist and rick chime in and try to keep the discussion civil and on track about bad advice and its effects.
You come back again and go into the specific example again.So far...no one has agreed with you that the original advice was so out of line.
Ah....the original author of said advice slips in....my GOD!!! how did she know you were describing her advice as terrible?I know I didn't tell her.She defends herself.
You say she is careless and gave bad advice.Still no one has agreed with you.But you persevere.
She disagrees with you again.
globalist wishes this had never started
Rick gives good advice on how to prevent said problen in the first place.
I opine that Bnut should probably delete your explanation of your banning if he deleted Joanie's side of the story(so far that remains undone)I also gave a link to other advice given by your good friend and mentor...I think it was good advice.It also was very similiar to Joanies.You either chose to ignore the link,or that might be one of the other forums you are innocently banned from.
Andy Wilson agrees somewhat with you!!!!!
I think Chris somewhat agrees with you since he didn't refute what you had said but pointed out that you had(in his and others opinions)given bad advice and gave an example.
You defend the aforementioned advice and stand by your new condemnation of someone who gives advice that you disagree with.(do we see a pattern here?)Is you're advice the only advice that should be immune to disagreement?Are you being persecuted because people disagree with your stance on a certain piece of advice?What makes your advice on that baldie good and Joanie's on the serissa bad?The people who disagreed with you on the baldie,had grown them before.you hadn't.You have grown serissas before,so has Joanie.Who's respective advice should hold more water?

it deteriorates from there...badly.You state that AOB and KOB are not discussion forums.B.S....Look at some of the longwinded discussions on AOB.And KOB?....it's one of my favorite places to go read the blogs...other than that there are only 4 or 5 active participants.If someone could engender some discussion I bet Paul would love it.

And then you go into your poor persecuted Will routine.Your correct.It's not about you.It's about bad advice.And you seem to think that you are the only one qualified to deem advice good or bad.

The relevant part of our conversation in this thread began as me disagreeing with you.That should have been the end of it.But you can't stand for anyone to disagree with you.So you start lecturing.It's tiresome.You make it about you by not accepting any opinion other than your own.

I don't have anything against you.I don't even know you.Maybe we should all take a good look at ourselves and how we come across on the internet.I'm sure I have pissed some people off,and I can be as stubborn as they come.But you really take the cake.

I think this is relevant.Because people see us as a collection of what we have said and done.
Bnut,I hope you leave this up long enough for Will to see it.


http://www.artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=997&start=60&sid=50c0416098221b995243eb726967a413

Read your comments Will...and then look at your friends who tried to explain what you meant.And don't forget the edited part.The part where you mention that the North American participants must have a "blind eye" to their own trees.First you encourage people to enter and then you ridicule their entries.Do you see what you do?Do you understand how you come across?I don't point this out with enmity.This is as serious and rational as I can get.You do yourself an injustice.


andy

andy

 

[agraham]

And then Al chimes in with the best advice yet...let the poor thing die.~LOL~Tuff love baby!

andy

 

[PaulStokes]

Blah, blah, blah. . . . .

 

[Anonymous User]

Andy,

I have never seen so many words that say so little before. What the hey does my stating my opinion on a contest I am running at AoB have to do with a single thing said here? If you want to discuss the contest, you can find the discussion forum easily there.

As long as you are rehashing the whole thread here (I believe people can and will read the whole thread themselves anyhow) let's look at my original words that stated this thread here.

Not attacking, just stating my thoughts and giving one single example without naming names or places, how much more benign can one be? Flybri gave me permission to use names and links, I didn't need such permission, as I said a few times already, I didn't think naming names and forums was relevant to the discussion and I was not out to personally attack anyone, just to point out one of many examples of bad advice.

Once again you seem intent on making this about anything but the subject.

The subject is (as you seem to have missed it) poor advice on the Internet, the example I used was a person telling a newcomer to re-pot a stressed tree without knowing what the exact problem was. This person guessed at the problem and said to re-pot the stressed tree. You say no one has agreed with me, I say no one has shown a thing to prove the advice was correct, please all of you that think re-potting a stressed tree without being 100% certain of the problem is a good solid practice worthy of recommending to others stand up and be counted.

However, as mentioned, count me as one who re-pot's only when needed and only if the exact cause of the stress is known and only if there are absolutely no other alternatives. A stressed tree has enough problems without undergoing a re-pot too. Telling a beginner to re-pot a stressed tree without knowing the exact cause for certain of the stress is bad bonsai and poor advice.

As to being persecuted, when the matter changes from the subject to the person, then something is wrong. Debate the topic, not the author, prove my thoughts wrong, don't link to some comment I made about a contest....such diversions have nothing to do with the topic or validating or invalidating my statements here. You think re-potting a stressed tree is fine, then say so and back it up, don't wander all around throwing stones at me, debate the topic, debate the subject, don't attack the author. It's not that hard of a concept.

So who out there makes it a regular practice to re-pot stressed trees without knowing for certain the cause of the stress, anyone?


Will

 

[Michael Milligan]

Blah, blah, blah. . . . .

Why didn't you say that at the start? Would have saved a lot of people a lot of time.

I'm just upset that any good discussion about advice is drown by this pissing contest.

 

[agraham]

ok Will.I think Joanie's advice was fine.I also think your advice was fine.Either way is fine.You can wait until the tree dies or you can try to do something about it.Maybe the tree won't die if you do nothing.Maybe the tree will die if you repot it.The opposite scenarios are just as likely.

I repot stressed trees all the time.I put trees through stress by training them.And then I repot them.I repot trees that are rootbound...they are stressed.I repot trees that show signs of "root rot".They are stressed.Generally...if they are in as bad a condition as that looks to be...i throw it away.I wouldn't recommend that to everyone..but that's what i do.

You jumped to a conclusion as much as anyone here.Joanie did NOT say to rootprune,except to cut off any mushy roots.If there were no mushy roots...no roots would be pruned.The original poster stated that he watered often.If you look carefully at the picture the leaves are not turning yellow and dropping.They are withered and brown,hanging on to the tree.The top branch looks withered.The soil looks waterlogged.Even the moss looks miserable..like slime. or algae.

I probably don't do things like you think i should,but they work for me.I don't think my ways are the only way but I will offer them as an alternative.I might disagree with someone when they say that their way is the only way....but if their way works for them....i would consider it an alternative.I think you are wrong in this instance.Not because your advice was bad...but because you think it is the only viable alternative.

And yes,there is bad advice on the internet.Just like there is bad advice in magazines and in books.You're advice on the b.c. was bad.You didn't know what you were talking about.But you stick with it because it fits the little you have read about developing bonsai in general.Even when much more knowledgable and experienced people adviced corrected you....you still insist that your advice was the sound one.

And yes....I think you were rude as hell...and humiliated people with your snide remark about the blind eye in your contest discussion.And that's the kind of stuff that gives people their impression of you.You really don't get it.Even when people point out that you screwed up.Even when they try to help you.You don't acknowledge it.You don't apologise.You don't make amends.You try to talk your way out of it or hide it.Reverse psychology my ass~LOL~.

So yes.Everywhere you post it becomes about you.Because you want it that way.

andy

 

[Anonymous User]

I'm just upset that any good discussion about advice is drown by this pissing contest.

As I mentioned to you earlier, I apologize for my part in this mess, I also was hoping to have a good discussion on advice, bad advice, and the handling thereof. Hopefully we can still find a way to do so. I wonder if the number of views on this thread would have been higher or lower without the clashes?

The last really interesting discussion I seen here was with Brent on the merits of forums and the policies that run them, unfortunately another series of off topic posts ended up getting that one closed. What a shame, a lot could have been learned there.

The real question is not if there is bad advice being given, we all know there is, but instead how to handle challenging it without causing a major blow out. Is it really better to just give up, to stop caring like so many have to avoid clashes like this one, or is the community better served by taking the heat, sticking to your beliefs, and speaking out, regardless of the consciences?


Will