Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
Al,
*burp*
Many thanks,
Victrinia
*burp*
Many thanks,
Victrinia
Getting excited about the USNBE!!!
- Thread starter Victrinia Ridgeway
- Start date
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
In America we have this culture that display is all about having the best tree and all the rest is just window dressing. At a tree show or at a judged tree only show then for the most part it "is" window dressing. Trust me, some pretty big whales come to Hanford CA. each year with killer trees and miss the whole point of what it really is we are trying to do.
Put together a display saying something. If the display doesn't have to speak, then someone can really put whatever they want to together.
Thats all I'm going to say.......
Put together a display saying something. If the display doesn't have to speak, then someone can really put whatever they want to together.
Thats all I'm going to say.......
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Excellent thread! I feel smarter and truthfully, I needed that today!
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
I couldn't agree more... but the trick is in making it speak well AND relevantly. If the imagry is Japanese... and I'm not Japanese, what's the point. Your suggestion about the columbine was excellent... it's relevant. But I have seen display that is screaming at me, and I know it... but I can't understand the language. At what point do we get to dive deeply into our own American expression of display and not need Japanese imagry to compare it against?
Just thinking out loud....
V
Victrinia,
There will be several display Awards selected at the 3rd US National Exhibition. 1) Best Western Style Display 2) Best Japanese Style Display 3) Best Shohin Display 4) Best Bonsai and Companion Plant Display. Kathy Shaners teacher, Mr. Mitsuya is one of the International Judges. The other two are Marc Noelanders and Pedro Morales.
Best Rgards,
Mark
There will be several display Awards selected at the 3rd US National Exhibition. 1) Best Western Style Display 2) Best Japanese Style Display 3) Best Shohin Display 4) Best Bonsai and Companion Plant Display. Kathy Shaners teacher, Mr. Mitsuya is one of the International Judges. The other two are Marc Noelanders and Pedro Morales.
Best Rgards,
Mark
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Who said anything about Japanese imagery?
The only Japanese reference in my whole long winded rant was on the style of your stand. I in no way compared anything you have done to a Japanese model. Nor should we.
I see some traditions being upheld but no comparisons.
What we have to do in America is start to use American judges and accept the fact that there are people here in America qualified to judge artistic endeavors. as long as we keep usuing Japanese Judges it will continue to be harder to get away from a Japanese model.
I was proud that a display of a California native plant with an American elk won a prestigious award for display in America last year. Thank you
Kathy Shaner for stepping out of the box.
Attachments
Tona
Shohin
Wow Guys! Thanks. I have so much to learn. I need to go to shows and view the trees with a new perspective. Displaying trees is something that I haven't put enough effort into learning. Great stuff and I love your tree Victrinia!
Tona
Tona
Bill S
Masterpiece
Great info Al, it's good to see this re. someone else's display without having to set up good and bad example, contrived so to speak. I have been saying for some time that one of the best things a bonsaist can do is go to every critique you can.
WHen it come to our art, I for one do not think you are an SOB, passionate for sure, good teacher too, at least you can get your point across.
WHen it come to our art, I for one do not think you are an SOB, passionate for sure, good teacher too, at least you can get your point across.
tmmason10
Omono
lol Skool's not out yet.
You were right. I certainly learned a lot.
Ron Dennis
Shohin
This has really been a great thread. Very informative! Thanks, Smoke, for the lessons you presented.
Every time I think I am making some progress in my knowledge, I read a thread such as this or talk with someone who really does know a lot and I realize just how unschooled I am and how far I have to travel. As Poink88 states in his signature. "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. - Socrates". Hope you do not mind my quoting your signature.
Every time I think I am making some progress in my knowledge, I read a thread such as this or talk with someone who really does know a lot and I realize just how unschooled I am and how far I have to travel. As Poink88 states in his signature. "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing. - Socrates". Hope you do not mind my quoting your signature.
Si Nguyen
Omono
Excellent discussion!!!! Thanks Al and et al.
dick benbow
Omono
I love the design of the white pot and it is complemented so much with the mint colored moss
and deep green of the juniper.
I think with no "dead" wood, the impression is surprisingly refreshing away from the "norm".
"attagirl" to the owner...and while i appreciate the workmanship of the stand, help me to understand why it was selected to go with this tree,
and deep green of the juniper.
I think with no "dead" wood, the impression is surprisingly refreshing away from the "norm".
"attagirl" to the owner...and while i appreciate the workmanship of the stand, help me to understand why it was selected to go with this tree,
Attila Soos
Omono
Great comments, Al.
I like the fact that you make a distinction between putting pieces together just to "look good", or putting pieces together that take into account geography, climate, and aesthetic tradition. The latter also needs to look good, but it also takes much more knowledge and fore-thought. Just like good art, that is much more than decoration: has great ideas, educational, inspirates and stimulates.
I am beginning to believe that you are more than just a cantankerous bonsai curmudgeon. You are evolving into a damn' good teacher, after all.
The best teachers are those who love teaching, and you certainly seem to love what you are doing. Time for a career change...
I like the fact that you make a distinction between putting pieces together just to "look good", or putting pieces together that take into account geography, climate, and aesthetic tradition. The latter also needs to look good, but it also takes much more knowledge and fore-thought. Just like good art, that is much more than decoration: has great ideas, educational, inspirates and stimulates.
I am beginning to believe that you are more than just a cantankerous bonsai curmudgeon. You are evolving into a damn' good teacher, after all.
The best teachers are those who love teaching, and you certainly seem to love what you are doing. Time for a career change...
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Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thanks to all of you with the kind words. I have always felt that the boards can be a place to actually learn things. There are many semi professional people that can add so much to the learning curve of this art and all it takes is a little time to type the words and post some pictures.
JudyB
Queen of the Nuts
Well, thank you for taking your time to share your time and knowledge with us who are looking to be better than we are now.
And that is a thank you to many here on the forum, - and you know who you are - that help to educate us with your progressions, and explanations of techniques, and guidance.
I know that I have benefitted from all of the input given to me (for free!) by all of you.
And that is a thank you to many here on the forum, - and you know who you are - that help to educate us with your progressions, and explanations of techniques, and guidance.
I know that I have benefitted from all of the input given to me (for free!) by all of you.
Ang3lfir3
Omono
I don't think Al touched on it too much [if he did please forgive my memory] but the table being so tall is a factor of the type of display the tree is in... what _might_ be called Seki Kazari or table top display ..... not the same as Toko Kazari (the form mostly being referenced in the images here) ..... the height of the stand was chosen to raise the tree up to a proper viewing height in this case as its most important to present the tree in its best light ... in THIS case its really all about the tree
we haven't yet had any of the trees in the tokonoma that are constructred at the USNBE .... if this were to be the case the displays would be very different I think
we haven't yet had any of the trees in the tokonoma that are constructred at the USNBE .... if this were to be the case the displays would be very different I think
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Whether table top or Tokonoma the use of a stand has the same meaning. Raising a tree by raising the stand is one way to do it, but the correct way is to use the correct stand and raise the table. Many clubs and display venue's use PVC risers to elevate the table to a more comfortable viewing height.
If the composition is not being judged as a unit then the stand can be used in any way one wishes. One could use a slab of burl or rusty serving tray as an abstract piece or something like that. Viewing bonsai in a strictly artistic sense allows displayers to have a lot more freedom in the way they arrange their pieces. I have seen sand spread on the table and skulls and all sorts of stuff. Traditional it is not, artistic it may be.
If thats the way the art moves then I can do that too.
Right now most judging keeps to most of the traditional ideals in bonsai display from a rather Japanese perspective. This may be what Vic eluded to earlier.
Displaying what we do in the museum would not work in a table top setting since the scrolls are so large. Many of the smaller type table top scrolls do not have the desired effect due to either being too gaudy or too cluttered with imagery. Tokonoma display is meant to be viewed from a sitting position during a tea ceramony. The tokonoma is purposly built low to the floor for that purpose. When sitting 20 inches from the floor is a good viewing height. To get the same perspective from a table top display one would have to have tables 4 and half feet tall. A happy medium must be reached.
For all intents and purposes and tall stand on a table means the exact same thing when displayed in a Tokonoma. Reverence or mountain.
Many people may have read some of Bill Valavanis' remarks about some of the Japanese displays more recently and the use of stones with trees. In the past mountain stones are not usually displayed with bonsai because it is assumed that the trees are already on the mountain, therefore a tree with a mountain is redundent. Much like a tree in a scroll. Part of a mountain is OK while part of a tree is OK. Just not the whole image. Subtlety. Object stones are not considered Suiseki and are OK.
Not being judged, no rules. Artists choice.
This is why judges are important. Judges must agree to choose winners and losers. This is why they follow a score card with pre arranged questions on them. That way they all judge the same items. Not much room for subjectivity that way.
If the composition is not being judged as a unit then the stand can be used in any way one wishes. One could use a slab of burl or rusty serving tray as an abstract piece or something like that. Viewing bonsai in a strictly artistic sense allows displayers to have a lot more freedom in the way they arrange their pieces. I have seen sand spread on the table and skulls and all sorts of stuff. Traditional it is not, artistic it may be.
If thats the way the art moves then I can do that too.
Right now most judging keeps to most of the traditional ideals in bonsai display from a rather Japanese perspective. This may be what Vic eluded to earlier.
Displaying what we do in the museum would not work in a table top setting since the scrolls are so large. Many of the smaller type table top scrolls do not have the desired effect due to either being too gaudy or too cluttered with imagery. Tokonoma display is meant to be viewed from a sitting position during a tea ceramony. The tokonoma is purposly built low to the floor for that purpose. When sitting 20 inches from the floor is a good viewing height. To get the same perspective from a table top display one would have to have tables 4 and half feet tall. A happy medium must be reached.
For all intents and purposes and tall stand on a table means the exact same thing when displayed in a Tokonoma. Reverence or mountain.
Many people may have read some of Bill Valavanis' remarks about some of the Japanese displays more recently and the use of stones with trees. In the past mountain stones are not usually displayed with bonsai because it is assumed that the trees are already on the mountain, therefore a tree with a mountain is redundent. Much like a tree in a scroll. Part of a mountain is OK while part of a tree is OK. Just not the whole image. Subtlety. Object stones are not considered Suiseki and are OK.
Not being judged, no rules. Artists choice.
This is why judges are important. Judges must agree to choose winners and losers. This is why they follow a score card with pre arranged questions on them. That way they all judge the same items. Not much room for subjectivity that way.
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Ang3lfir3
Omono
I think an important point is to remember what the focus of each type of display is .... It is my understanding that evoking some sort of emotion or telling of some story is NOT the goal of table top display... it is my understanding that in this case the goal is to simply present the tree in a surrounding that is appropriate (ie keeping trees at their tree line heights [for lack of a better term]) and compliments the tree.
It is my understanding however that in Tokonoma display the intent is to tell some story or to evoke some emotion ..... the tree is of little importance except that it must play its role well in the story , etc ...
my point being that one of these subscribes "meaning" to things while in another they are simply vehicles for some form of placement .... does that make sense?? Personally I find the two types of display very different and very much having a very different set of standards and practices .....
It is my understanding however that in Tokonoma display the intent is to tell some story or to evoke some emotion ..... the tree is of little importance except that it must play its role well in the story , etc ...
my point being that one of these subscribes "meaning" to things while in another they are simply vehicles for some form of placement .... does that make sense?? Personally I find the two types of display very different and very much having a very different set of standards and practices .....
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Well yes and no. Yes a table top display is usually about a tree. Period. How you display it is your business.
....but... it should still conform to basic display ethics. None of which are only applied to Tokonoma display only in any of the critique of Vic's tree.
The pot, stand and placement are good. The accent is wrong for a conifer period. The accent is too large for the composition as displayed. It wouldn't matter whether its in a Tokonoma or a table, because those design elements are universal in bonsai display pretty much the world over. We talk about Americanizeing them, yet they are tried and true and they work. No matter how much we may wish to take the Japanese out of display in American trees, it is still fundamentally a Japanese art with Japanese asthetics. We can soften them to fit our surrounding and make them mean more to us as a culture and that is happening slowly. It's pretty damn hard to take a 1000 year old art and make it something more American in 75 years, but we are moving in a good direction.
With three great bonsai display venues making headway in America, Bonsai display will be much easier in the future because education will be easier to get. The Kazari has already done so much for California and I think it will only get better.
Again let be be perfectly clear. Anyone can display a tree anyway they wish to. There are no bonsai display police. There is a right way and I won't go so far as to say theres a wrong way, because displaying any bonsai is a good thing right or wrong. There are just methods that make it more right than wrong. Untill a better and universally accepted way is found, to thumb ones nose at them is really closing a mind.
All I know is that as I gain more experience and learn more and more, I stand to earn more and more money with a hobby, and thats all right with me.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
This may shed more light from my perspecvtive.
Let us compare what Ryan and Michael is going to do versus what we do at the Kazari.
To enter a tree in Portland, pictures will be submitted and a jury will allow you to either enter your tree or tell you work on it for a few more years and maybe then it will be ready.
I have no problem with that and wish more clubs did that for their yealy display and limited each member to two trees or something like that. Spread them out and let them breath.
NO, we do it so as to not hurt peoples feelings and everyone enteres about 5 trees and we cram them all together and they look terrible.
This is going to be a tree show. This is going to have the emphasis on displaying the finest art America has to offer. It will be shown in an art museum like Kokufu and will probably carry the prestige that goes along with it.
So I have no problem with juried trees.
At the Kazari
Anyone can enter, and we have no rules on what you can display. You will be judged on Japanese Tokonoma rules so working outside the box gets you nothing. Do it right and you win. do it wrong and you lose.
At a tree show, who cares if the accent is appropriate. In fact I would be inclined to show a tree without accent as what can it possibly add to a tree display. A splash of color or texture and thats about it. A tree and a stand, how much more simple can you get.
Now, would I enter a tree for that show in Portland?
maybe.....
I do not have trees that caliber and I know it.
At the Kazari the tree is not the star, how I display it "is".
Let us compare what Ryan and Michael is going to do versus what we do at the Kazari.
To enter a tree in Portland, pictures will be submitted and a jury will allow you to either enter your tree or tell you work on it for a few more years and maybe then it will be ready.
I have no problem with that and wish more clubs did that for their yealy display and limited each member to two trees or something like that. Spread them out and let them breath.
NO, we do it so as to not hurt peoples feelings and everyone enteres about 5 trees and we cram them all together and they look terrible.
This is going to be a tree show. This is going to have the emphasis on displaying the finest art America has to offer. It will be shown in an art museum like Kokufu and will probably carry the prestige that goes along with it.
So I have no problem with juried trees.
At the Kazari
Anyone can enter, and we have no rules on what you can display. You will be judged on Japanese Tokonoma rules so working outside the box gets you nothing. Do it right and you win. do it wrong and you lose.
At a tree show, who cares if the accent is appropriate. In fact I would be inclined to show a tree without accent as what can it possibly add to a tree display. A splash of color or texture and thats about it. A tree and a stand, how much more simple can you get.
Now, would I enter a tree for that show in Portland?
maybe.....
I do not have trees that caliber and I know it.
At the Kazari the tree is not the star, how I display it "is".
