Getting collected trees into a nice pot

[Waltron]

I agree that sounds fun, I want you to show me your scott pine spot lol. I have a big customer in Kalkaska so I need to get up there for a sales call anyway

 

[M. Frary]

I want you to show me your scott pine spot lol.

That's near Gaylord. If they are still there. I know that line is slated for work and the first thing in is the big mower. The next time I have some free time I need to go see.
I've found a couple other places for back up but need to get permission and those trees haven't be brutalized yet like the ones in The Spot.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance I didn't know you had a patent on that thing, how much do you get for those? I've made a few very similar except instead of window screen sides, I use perforated stainless steel or aluminum.

I used to get $50 to $25 depending on size. I have not sold any of them for quite some time once over-sea sources found ways to rip of the patent. This is an expensive process and will not make you rich. It is like bonsai wherein it is said; the only way to make a small fortune in bonsai is to start out with a large on. First the infringers came along from over-seas, then the cost of materials become prohibitive so I found making them to be more an act of love as opposed to an act of finance.

 

[Vance Wood]

Deaths Vance. Almost all tamaracks I collected last year and put into colanders died. Every pine I collected and put into colanders died. Everything that went into nursery cans lived.
Now,I am digging up larger and larger trees every year and they just barely fit into colanders so maybe that's it but my guess is still too much air if that makes sense.
That bucket that Jack pine is in that you have is what it went into at collection. I had one that was collected the same day,put it into a colander and it's dead.
It could be I'm a little rough but I don't think so. This spring everything but deciduous that I collect goes into a bucket. I talked to Kurt from The Flower Shop last year about the collected tamaracks he has for sale and they all are put into nursery buckets.
We're working out a deal. I take him some collected tamaracks to trade for things I want from him. If they make it this tear he wants a bunch of collected trees. Even Scots pine and Jack pine. He also wants some American elms.
Have you ever been to his place? I'll probably be taking a truckload down in the summer. Feel like taking a road trip to Dundee? Go to Kurt's place and maybe Cabelas if you feel like it. I'll pick you up.

No I have not bee to Kurts. I assume you know where it is at. I would be game to go down there with you. Geeze that's got to be a long ride for you.

 

[Waltron]

Kurts place is awesome, he has a impressive collection of nice trees in the bonsai garden, and nursery, most of which are for sale, There are always members from our ann arbor club working on trees on Saturdays. He sells all types of bonsai soil ingredients, its where I get my turface, and a very good soil mix that is basically the jack winkle mix, also a wide variety of bonsai pots and indoor bonsai for sale as well. Kurt is funny and friendly and usually there. Im lucky its only 10 miles from my house, but I still dont get there enough.

 

[mattspinniken]

I agree lets get together and go collecting. We just need to find a great spot, with our collected effort maybe we can get permission in a really good area. The U.P. calls my name. I live in Leelanau County which is right by Traverse City, MI.

 

[mattspinniken]

they all are put into nursery buckets

Thanks Mike for the good info on your experience using colanders and nursery buckets after collecting. Info like this from others experimenting is why this site is so good.

Nursery buckets for me usually seem to deep and narrow. Do you cut them down to size?

 

[mattspinniken]

Jack pine

Jack Pine I think is one of those species that will be less forgiving I have a nice one I have wanted to collect for a few years but I want to go in with the right technique first. I haven't tried collecting one yet.

Also, some really like colanders, I personally think good quality water is really important. Simply because the difference in health in my trees was so obvious after I changed over to rainwater. More people should look into this, especially if their water is leaving behind white residue on their plants like mine was.

 

[Waltron]

I'll chime in here because I have opinions on these things, there is no question rain water is best, ive seen instant results as well using rain water, especially on my beech, hornbeam, and jack pine, im looking into getting a carbon filter hose attachment to test it out as well, but they seem to run about 30 bucks.. which would be worth it if it shows results. I go through a lot of rain water. its (using rain water)repeatedly written in many of my books too fwiw. not only is it of neutral ph most times, but there are micro nutes in there.

I would suggest collecting that jack pine in mid summer, during early mid July. you are going to want to take a large rootball and keep all the soil, and sphag moss too. that's based off my very limited experience, but I've seen acceptable results so far.

nursery buckets work great just like any other container, the protect the roots from wind, but are condusive to circling, which is fine really, just not ideal. I cut the height down. the draw back is the black plastic, it gets hot in mid summer, too hot even, and the jack pine likes full sun, from what I can tell. this problem can be easily countered with various methods. all these things keep leading me back to my felt grow bags.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have been collecting trees and putting them into wooden boxes for the last 3 or 4 years. My survival rate has been very good overall and trees are healthy. I am starting to look for pots for a number of my trees and I am worried that the process of going from wooden box to small container will be like a second collection for them and they will suffer from it.

When I first started collecting my theory was bigger training boxes are better. Now I am starting to think that the smallest possible pot or box is best right after collection as long as I don't need to trim many roots at all during collection. I am not collecting things that need to be "grown out". I am just looking for vigor. Maybe a small pot but mulched into a bigger box for the first year? Any thoughts?

Bigger grow out container, or smallest possible? From experience the answer is "it depends, on what the tree needs to get the future tree you envision"

1.- Go big, if the tree needs to be built, rebuilt or needs to add wood. Go big. If the trunk is too thin, and you need to add caliper, increase the diameter of the trunk, go big. If you need branches to extend to many feet long, to build taper, go big. In my experience, for my trees that the plans are for shohin or the next size up, I have most of my trees in training in Anderson flats that hold the same amount of media as a nursery trade 3 gallon pot. Even though the finished tree will be under a foot tall, they are currently in Anderson flats, my Amur maple is almost 7 feet tall, it will be less than 8 inches when I'm done. GO BIG. And, you don't start reducing the pot size until you are finished building the main branch structure, AND the first level or two of branch ramification. It is a big mistake to move an underdeveloped tree into a small pot, or bonsai pot, because it will greatly slow the growth rate. I have moved trees to small bonsai pots too early, the result was that even after a decade, the tree did not ''grow up'' to become a good looking bonsai. GO BIG, often for a number of years longer than you might think reading articles. Now this does not mean don't work on the rood structure, every time you repot, you use the opportunity to work the root system, get rid of downward roots, adjust root placement, especially the nebari, but keep the horizontal spreading roots and put it back in the large training box, or flat, or colander. Keep enough roots that you do not slow growth until you are done building the diameter of the trunk and the branch structure needed for the finished tree. This is really important with deciduous trees, broadleaf trees, as with these we tend to ''build a tree'', and need to create most of the bonsai from wood that has to be grown.

Option 2
GO SMALL as possible - you only do this with trees that have the trunk diameter you need the day they are collected. You also do this with hyper-vigorous trees that you need to slow down. That yamadori Ponderosa pine that is already 100 years old, go as small as is practical. The black willow, or other species, that grows so fast you can't keep up with it, go to the smaller pot. Some trees, especially dwarf cultivars of conifers, are slow growing and even if in a large spacious container, will never grow fast, and likely take years to fill a large container with roots. These you use a roomy pot, a bit too large for display, but you don't need to use huge grow boxes. Satsuki azalea will thicken slowly but steadily without needing huge grow out pots.

Also shift to smaller pots when you are trying to shorten the length of internodes. When you already have the primary branch structure, and need to build the rest of the tree with shorter internodes, here you want slower growth, to get a tighter design.

 

[mattspinniken]

Thanks Leo, good point on the boxes. I agree with you, I don't collect conifers that need thicker trunks and if you are wanting a thicker trunk it would be an althogether different approach. I don't really collect deciduous but if I did it would possibly be smaller and I would put it in a bigger box.

 

[Waltron]

I need to find out if Kurt can bring in some Anderson flats, 40-50 dollar shipping really kills it for me, although I do really want some. I can make them out of metal, or even with a plastic bottom with metal sides, well actually I could make them out of pvc with un perforated sides. I think the andersons would be about perfect. i guess i should make some.

 

[M. Frary]

No I have not bee to Kurts. I assume you know where it is at. I would be game to go down there with you. Geeze that's got to be a long ride for you.

I'd come down and stay at the daughters then the next morning pick you up and head to Dundee.
It's a long drive but it would be for 2 good causes.
1. Bonsai
2. More importantly. Spend more time with you. Doing our favorite thing.
It would all be worth it Vance.

 

[M. Frary]

Thanks Mike for the good info on your experience using colanders and nursery buckets after collecting. Info like this from others experimenting is why this site is so good.

Nursery buckets for me usually seem to deep and narrow. Do you cut them down to size?

Nope. I feel the motel soil the better. Also I'm not messing with the roots at all by just plopping it into a bucket. After they heal then root work can be done.

 

[M. Frary]

I agree lets get together and go collecting. We just need to find a great spot, with our collected effort maybe we can get permission in a really good area. The U.P. calls my name. I live in Leelanau County which is right by Traverse City, MI.

You ever go to Zimmermann nursery. Or Barker Creek?

 

[mattspinniken]

Zimmermann nursery

Zimmerman all the time I actually purchase a lot of plants there for my business. I also have a few ungrafted jap mapes from there that I got for free that were trunk chopped and put in the ground 2 years ago. Not Barker Creek though.

 

[M. Frary]

Zimmerman all the time I actually purchase a lot of plants there for my business. I also have a few ungrafted jap mapes from there that I got for free that were trunk chopped and put in the ground 2 years ago. Not Barker Creek though.

It sucks that you can grow Japanese maples where you live and 90 miles to the east I can't.
It's the dam Au Sable Valley. You're zone 5 and I'm almost at zone 3 where I live. I think you do get more snow though.

 

[mattspinniken]

It sucks that you can grow Japanese maples where you live and 90 miles to the east I can't.
It's the dam Au Sable Valley. You're zone 5 and I'm almost at zone 3 where I live. I think you do get more snow though.

Yeah Im lucky to be zone 5 here definietly gives me more options. Some of my friends in Traverse even do Trident maples. Leelanau County is a peninsula between the lakes so it the temp is moderated through the year. That is why it is such a popular place for growing Cherries, Apples, and Grapes.

 

[mattspinniken]

It sucks that you can grow Japanese maples where you live and 90 miles to the east I can't.
It's the dam Au Sable Valley. You're zone 5 and I'm almost at zone 3 where I live. I think you do get more snow though.

its interesting that you can grow Shimpaku and not Jap Maple. I thought they were both in the zone 4 or 5 range. Japenese Maples exposed to cold winds in my customers yards will suffer a lot of die back here but do great in protected spots.

 

[M. Frary]

can grow Shimpaku

Shimpaku are way more cold hardy. I've 1 out there that's been through last winter and the previous one.
To look at them they seem delicate but they take the cold as well as procumbens or parsons which I have both of.