ColinFraser
Masterpiece
Love that song.After 5 years you've....
General advice on Chinese Elm
- Thread starter ConorDash
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- chinese elm
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Here it is a bit colder. Not as cold hardy as I would like. Planting in ground is good. You will layer off trees in no time.
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
Hoe Chuah, a member on this site, published an elegant solution for what can be done with an s-shaped elm. Elm are vigorous and forgiving. They may be developed quickly. Read this link for an example of what can be done with Chinese elm bonsai/mallsai.
http://houstonbonsaisociety.com/air-layering-a-chinese-elm-mallsai-into-two-shohin-bonsai/
http://houstonbonsaisociety.com/air-layering-a-chinese-elm-mallsai-into-two-shohin-bonsai/
Thanks, I might just do that.
That chop you did had to be painful in some kinda way! As a beginner, something like that seems so extreme but I know that it's necessary for the future of it.
This is quite an attractive idea to me, I'm not entirely sure why! But nice to know it can be done. Once I get a second bonsai, I'll hopefully be more willing to do more with that Elm. Thanks
Thank you
It's certainly looking an attractive idea. Have you done this before? The air layering also does look like a good experience though, and the shohin look rather cute.
At least I've got options!
I didn't mean to post this in 3 posts, it bugs me when people post so many times at once, sorry!
Thank you for the info, that link was posted by someone else in this topic already
. I had read it previously, it does look like a viable solution and a good looking little shohin.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
First....
Don't worry about a "primary" tree.
Those kinds get worked to death.
Second....
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ulmus-procera.23630/unread
A "non- primary" tree!
Third....
Don't be afraid to Airlayer it....
In fact....treat yourself to 2 trees NOW!
An autistic Chimpanzee can make a successful Airlayer on a Chinese elm.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/radialayer™-a-season-saver.17046/
Fourth.....
Neva...Eva Eva Eva! Use rusty tools to make chops! Imagine the pathogens that rusty tools hold. Fucking or otherwise!
I wanna see this layer started before the end of the weekend!
2 excellent beginnings!
And you get to practice how to pot something this year.
And you sho Aint goin kill it!
Unless you use rusty tools!
Sorce
Don't worry about a "primary" tree.
Those kinds get worked to death.
Second....
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ulmus-procera.23630/unread
A "non- primary" tree!
Third....
Don't be afraid to Airlayer it....
In fact....treat yourself to 2 trees NOW!
An autistic Chimpanzee can make a successful Airlayer on a Chinese elm.
http://www.bonsainut.com/threads/radialayer™-a-season-saver.17046/
Fourth.....
Neva...Eva Eva Eva! Use rusty tools to make chops! Imagine the pathogens that rusty tools hold. Fucking or otherwise!
I wanna see this layer started before the end of the weekend!
2 excellent beginnings!
And you get to practice how to pot something this year.
And you sho Aint goin kill it!
Unless you use rusty tools!
Sorce
Agree absolutely (if the tree is established well in the pot). The same story is behind this lil' tree
....and I still see one more possible air-layer.
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Thank you Sorce.
I didn't realise you were master of the air layer, you should have said! I saw your technique with the Radialayer, and I saw the other with just the cling film sphagnum moss.
Ok I think I am being persuaded to try it out, but I will need to get the supplies for it like the moss and extra pot, root hormone, can use the remainder of the soil mix (even though its not perfect, I think it will do for this shohin?) I imagine the shohin would like the extra compost in its mix whilst it needs all the extra bits of strength it can get. After it is established, I could repot to something more draining, as I did plan to.
I will work this out and maybe get back to you guys with questions, if any
. Or bombard Sorce's message inbox instead...I had already read that first link of yours, the guy whos friend gave him a random yamadori and it turned in to that great looking tree. Is a great story, shame we couldn't see the before for it.
Thanks, thats a nice looking little tree
.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Still don't think that's a really great idea with this tree and your experience.
It's always frustrating for me when I see stuff like this recommended with trees like this. It's becoming a pet peeve of mine.
Root grafting, approach grafting and other stuff that gets thrown up when a beginner asks what they can do with a tree are not all that easy. It LOOKS easy, but there is considerable room for failure. Air layers fail all the time. They especially fail when you are doing it for the first time and don't know when to stop reducing the inner bark, or reduce it too much, or you don't water the layer when it needs it or when do water it too much, etc. At this point, you're still learning how to water the main tree.
Also, in the end, you will have only doubled your problem. You still have to learn to take care of the trees--and the air layer could require some special attention when separating it and planting it out (new roots can be tricky to get off the main tree and into bonsai soil)
It's always frustrating for me when I see stuff like this recommended with trees like this. It's becoming a pet peeve of mine.
Root grafting, approach grafting and other stuff that gets thrown up when a beginner asks what they can do with a tree are not all that easy. It LOOKS easy, but there is considerable room for failure. Air layers fail all the time. They especially fail when you are doing it for the first time and don't know when to stop reducing the inner bark, or reduce it too much, or you don't water the layer when it needs it or when do water it too much, etc. At this point, you're still learning how to water the main tree.
Also, in the end, you will have only doubled your problem. You still have to learn to take care of the trees--and the air layer could require some special attention when separating it and planting it out (new roots can be tricky to get off the main tree and into bonsai soil)
I take on board what you are saying. I have far from made up my mind on it, because as you say, its all very "scary" for a beginner, and I'm very much in favour of walking before I run.
However at the same time, it is all experience and its not being done on a more prized specimen so if it goes wrong, I live and learn. I'm usually the more cautious though.
I appreciate all the thoughts and ideas from everyone.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Eh...
Kill it and you'll gain more experience than you'll lose tree.
Just chop your sphagnum fine so it rinses out of the roots...
And remove bark/cambium till it ain't slimy.
Look at Harry's site for the "cat litter" you can get....its a perfectly good beginner substrate. One product. One watering habit.
If you manage to screw this up.....
I will ship you a new tree from Graham Potter myself.
Sorce
Kill it and you'll gain more experience than you'll lose tree.
Just chop your sphagnum fine so it rinses out of the roots...
And remove bark/cambium till it ain't slimy.
Look at Harry's site for the "cat litter" you can get....its a perfectly good beginner substrate. One product. One watering habit.
If you manage to screw this up.....
I will ship you a new tree from Graham Potter myself.
Sorce
Yes I have read past that stage on Harrys site, the Tesco cat litter looks great! I was planning on getting that when repotting next early spring. Still reading through Harry's site, down to propagation techniques (1 topic away from Air Layering, funny enough!).
I shall try not to take you up on that offer Sorce
, but appreciated. I have emailed Kaizen about an Acer Palmatum, seeing what other stock they have for the budget Im putting forward, hopefully they will have something for me.Appreciated
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
This is where the whole "air layer it" argument for crappy specimens breaks down and where people completely misunderstand the process. Air layering is used BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE AIRLAYERING IS WORTH MAKING A TREE OUT OF. Sorry to shout, but simply making a second crappy tree from the first crappy tree, leaves you with TWO crappy trees--doubling your time, effort and expense at caring for two crappy trees.
Ask any number of more experienced bonsai-ists and they will most likely tell you they have spent a lot of time dumping their crappy air layered trees, hundreds of cuttings and other mostly propagation-oriented stuff because they are a time suck and a distraction from actually doing bonsai.
Air layering isn't all that special. It's overused by MANY who see it as a way to get "free" trees (it CAN be, but usually the "free" tree is worth what you pay for it).
It's also over -recommended as a "solution" to questionable trees. It's nothing of the sort. A questionable tree rarely has anything worth removing to make another tree--this tree is no exception. Unfortunately, air layering has become a mostly a sleight-of-hand bonsai trick that impresses folks who aren't familiar with it.
Again I find myself being a "Debbie Downer," but I read this "air layer it dood" stuff and shake my head. Yeah, air layer it and split your time caring for another tree that you're not going to be really happy with...misery loves company ;-)
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
@rockm is right and an airlayer will set you back a year.
Cut it low grow out the next section cut it again etc.
Chop and grow is a technique used to make bonsai. It will give you taper. The tree has none now. It gives you movement in the trunk. The tree has some but it's big curves with straight sections.
Layering is used to make better trees not 2 free trees. I have one going now. Once the layer grows roots the bottom gets tossed.
Cut it low grow out the next section cut it again etc.
Chop and grow is a technique used to make bonsai. It will give you taper. The tree has none now. It gives you movement in the trunk. The tree has some but it's big curves with straight sections.
Layering is used to make better trees not 2 free trees. I have one going now. Once the layer grows roots the bottom gets tossed.
I can see that point of view certainly. There seems to be pros and cons of both approaches. Ill do what I think is best at the time (after reading your comments), but luckily, there is no rush to do it. Its very interesting to see peoples approaches though, that in itself, is only teaching me more. So thanks guys.
I agree with you, it is certainly just a simple Mallsai, what I have got. But good for learning, no matter what I do
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
One of the best learning trees there is actually. If not the best.But good for learning, no matter what I do
Sometimes, air-layering is used to get a new tree instead of throwing cut off parts away.
Oh well, is this your first tree? It's not crappy, it's just young mass produced chinese mallsai. Look how green the bark is. Re-reading all the thread, I'd follow@rockm 's first post and let it grow for a year to learn how to care it... All the trunk will profit from unrestricted growth. Next year will be better for the decisions.
Oh well, is this your first tree? It's not crappy, it's just young mass produced chinese mallsai. Look how green the bark is. Re-reading all the thread, I'd follow@rockm 's first post and let it grow for a year to learn how to care it... All the trunk will profit from unrestricted growth. Next year will be better for the decisions.
ColinFraser
Masterpiece
Nah, it's actually very satisfying. All the junk I just cut off had served its only purpose - to get the base thick enough to be worth playing around with. Now the real fun begins!
That's why I shared it here. Once you see a few "shocking" chops, cutting the top off of a mallsai won't seem like such a big deal
