Frozen Top Soil Conifers. Help needed.

[Bonsai Nut]

So whats your Thoughts / Experience with heat pads ? ( see pics )

I have only used heat pads on seedings in a cold frame. I would never use a heat pad on a dormant tree. Many deciduous trees NEED dormancy in their life processes - which is why, for example, you can't keep a sugar maple or cold hardy pine indoors, etc.

There is no reason why you can't water a frozen tree. Trees get rain on frozen ground all the time in nature. In fact, snow is a great insulator, and a snow covering on your trees is actually beneficial. I used to overwinter my Chicago trees in an unheated garage and would put snowballs on each rootball, and if the temp ever rose above freezing, my trees would automatically get watered. I wouldn't hesitate to do the same with ice cubes.

 

[BobbyLane]

Not possible Thanks anyway

Sure. Thats lucky for you. But im talking about -20 to -25 celsius weeks on end. Do you get that ? Thanks anyway.

Read above. Thanks


To all you great people : Im NOT trying to be a smartass here I’m a Bonsai Beginner but I’m also a swede with 43 ( mild OCD ) winters here and counting But nowadays everything starts to change with global warming and all so you never know how it will look on top of that … But anyways, thanks for all the input !

•Today I’ll adjust/lower the temp in the shed for the deciduous.
•Turn off the thermostat / heat pads for now, at least until we get the low temps I’ve been bragging about

I’ll take some pics of the current setup and post. For my own records if nothing else.

//Emil

the only time I felt that cold was when I lived in Alberta, Canada for 6 years, often it would be -30 to -35 with the wind shield. apologies if my winter advice was useless to you
it is what it is though, there are folk here who live in your part of the world and they have balconies and all they can do is huddle their trees against the building wall and its usually enough. ive never heard of anyone overwintering with a heat mat

 

[BobbyLane]

Stockholm

The average temperature is of -0.2 °C (32 °F), with a minimum of -2.8 °C (27 °F) and a maximum of 2.5 °C (36.5 °F). On the coldest nights of the month, the temperature usually drops to around -11.5 °C (11 °F).
In November, the weather in Stockholm is usually cold. The average temperature is of 2.9 °C (37 °F), with a minimum of 0.3 °C (32.6 °F) and a maximum of 5.4 °C (41.8 °F).

On the coldest nights, which normally occur at the end of the month, the temperature usually drops to around -7 °C (19 °F). However, it dropped to -14 °C (6.8 °F) in November 2010.

On the warmest days, which normally occur at the beginning of the month, the temperature usually reaches around 11 °C (51.5 °F). However, it reached 15.1 °C (59.2 °F) in November 2020.
Precipitation amounts to 45 mm (1.8 in), distributed over 10 days.
The day lasts on average 7 hours and 35 minutes. So the days are short.

There are on average 1.5 hours of sunshine per day. So, the sun shines 20% of the time.
The average humidity is 87%. Hence, the air is normally humid.
The average wind speed is 12 kph (8 mph).

The average sea temperature is of 6.5 °C (43.5 °F). Therefore, the sea is very cold for swimming.

---

In December, the weather in Stockholm is usually very cold. The average temperature is of -0.2 °C (32 °F), with a minimum of -2.8 °C (27 °F) and a maximum of 2.5 °C (36.5 °F).

On the coldest nights of the month, the temperature usually drops to around -11.5 °C (11 °F). However, it dropped to -24 °C (-11.2 °F) in December 2001.

bit similar to the guy from Lithuania who I posted the screenshot of earlier. Lithuanian winters are actually more brutal than Swedish winters.


what you said about it being minus 25 for weeks on end isnt really adding up, according to what ive researched.

 

[BobbyLane]

London winters

 

[rockm]

London winters

Wow that's really not that much snow...

 

[BobbyLane]

Wow that's really not that much snow...

I know lol, ive seen worse! there were times in Calgary where the snow was up to my calves, walking to high school. shovelling it off my dads lawn, thankfully he's now in Florida!
we go crazy for a light dusting of snow in the UK

 

[rockm]

I know lol, ive seen worse! there were times in Calgary where the snow was up to my calves, walking to high school. shovelling it off my dads lawn, thankfully he's now in Florida!
we go crazy for a light dusting of snow in the UK

We're set for our first ice storm of the year tonight. Only 1/4" accumulation possible, nothing like last January...

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Here zone 4 a Canada probably closer to you in Sweden . Watering frozen trees has no effect the soil or tree absorb no water . The conifers you mentioned are all zone 4 trees and will survive fine with there roots frozen solid all winter . The enemy is wind . With frozen roots trees need wind protection . If the tree is froze dormant and receives no light it has no need of water . All my cold hardy trees freeze roots on bench then in a non heated building no light . Including conifers . You need protect from wind a must . My concerns if I was you would be in bright sun does the cold frame heat up to much . Do the trees get light if they do and daytime temp is consistently above freezing you could have trouble freeze thaw continues is bad . And hard on roots aim for consistent froze or thawed . Beware of temp fluctuations late winter early spring . Your insulation mulch is good for consistent temp . Heat pads. May help in extreme cold -25c -35 c sensitive non root established collected trees can benefit from further safety margin as can small pots . I’m considering a large box inside my winter storage with medium in it hat cables or mats in box pots buried in to the rim for sensitive trees . I feel air movement is important you may be controlling that to much with blankets in a small area . If you apply heat of any kind in a space in frozen environment be very very very alert for cambium eating &@$&@; rodents . Traps .( peanut butter bait ) don’t freeze and dryer sheets lots are best defence . Don’t neglect this Good luck. Temp fluctuations and wind are your bigest concerns

 

[BobbyLane]

Here zone 4 a Canada probably closer to you in Sweden . Watering frozen trees has no effect the soil or tree absorb no water . The conifers you mentioned are all zone 4 trees and will survive fine with there roots frozen solid all winter . The enemy is wind . With frozen roots trees need wind protection . If the tree is froze dormant and receives no light it has no need of water . All my cold hardy trees freeze roots on bench then in a non heated building no light . Including conifers . You need protect from wind a must . My concerns if I was you would be in bright sun does the cold frame heat up to much . Do the trees get light if they do and daytime temp is consistently above freezing you could have trouble freeze thaw continues is bad . And hard on roots aim for consistent froze or thawed . Beware of temp fluctuations late winter early spring . Your insulation mulch is good for consistent temp . Heat pads. May help in extreme cold -25c -35 c sensitive non root established collected trees can benefit from further safety margin as can small pots . I’m considering a large box inside my winter storage with medium in it hat cables or mats in box pots buried in to the rim for sensitive trees . I feel air movement is important you may be controlling that to much with blankets in a small area . If you apply heat of any kind in a space in frozen environment be very very very alert for cambium eating &@$&@; rodents . Traps .( peanut butter bait ) don’t freeze and dryer sheets lots are best defence . Don’t neglect this Good luck. Temp fluctuations and wind are your bigest concerns

Ottawa still, gets much colder than Stockholm:

How cold does Ottawa get in the winter?

On the coldest days of the year, the temperature can drop to -25 °C (-13 °F) or even below.

Only certain parts of sweden reach those low temps: Above the Arctic Circle, winter is severe with temperatures going below -30°C, while summer temperatures here, and in the rest of the country, regularly hit +20°C. In the south, winter is generally mild with an average temperature above 0°C/32°F degrees.


Sweden:

The temperature stays in the range of -22°C and -3°C in the winter. Weather: Winters in Sweden can be harsh. The temperatures drop to a whopping 22 degrees below 0 or even 30 degrees at times in the north. However, the cities do not go below -5°C.

stockholm does not get as cold as ottawa, which is one of the coldest places in canada.

 

[Runstenen]

Stockholm

The average temperature is of -0.2 °C (32 °F), with a minimum of -2.8 °C (27 °F) and a maximum of 2.5 °C (36.5 °F). On the coldest nights of the month, the temperature usually drops to around -11.5 °C (11 °F).
In November, the weather in Stockholm is usually cold. The average temperature is of 2.9 °C (37 °F), with a minimum of 0.3 °C (32.6 °F) and a maximum of 5.4 °C (41.8 °F).

On the coldest nights, which normally occur at the end of the month, the temperature usually drops to around -7 °C (19 °F). However, it dropped to -14 °C (6.8 °F) in November 2010.

On the warmest days, which normally occur at the beginning of the month, the temperature usually reaches around 11 °C (51.5 °F). However, it reached 15.1 °C (59.2 °F) in November 2020.
Precipitation amounts to 45 mm (1.8 in), distributed over 10 days.
The day lasts on average 7 hours and 35 minutes. So the days are short.

There are on average 1.5 hours of sunshine per day. So, the sun shines 20% of the time.
The average humidity is 87%. Hence, the air is normally humid.
The average wind speed is 12 kph (8 mph).

The average sea temperature is of 6.5 °C (43.5 °F). Therefore, the sea is very cold for swimming.

---

In December, the weather in Stockholm is usually very cold. The average temperature is of -0.2 °C (32 °F), with a minimum of -2.8 °C (27 °F) and a maximum of 2.5 °C (36.5 °F).

On the coldest nights of the month, the temperature usually drops to around -11.5 °C (11 °F). However, it dropped to -24 °C (-11.2 °F) in December 2001.

bit similar to the guy from Lithuania who I posted the screenshot of earlier. Lithuanian winters are actually more brutal than Swedish winters.


what you said about it being minus 25 for weeks on end isnt really adding up, according to what ive researched.

Wow. Thanks for your time and research. I may have exaggerated a tiny bit. It has happened before Let’s see what the future brings.

 

[BobbyLane]

Wow. Thanks for your time and research. I may have exaggerated a tiny bit. It has happened before Let’s see what the future brings.

molly coddling springs to mind

 

[Runstenen]

molly coddling springs to mind

Yeah … haha

 

[Runstenen]

Not the best pics

CONIFERS OUTSIDE in noob cold frame:
As you can see I have options to open both top and front cover of the frame if needed. Or have it totally or partially open. I have frost blankets I can use if needed. As an extra measure I also have the heat pads with a thermostat, but thats turned off as of today.

DECIDIOUS IN THE GARAGE
In the garage i have frost blankets ready, but i think i wont need them. I also have a thermostat controlled heater, but thats also turned off.

 

[BobbyLane]

now you can sing them a lullaby, no milk n cookies tonight, straight to bed

 

[Runstenen]

now you can sing them a lullaby, no milk n cookies tonight, straight to bed

Haha Will do

 

[Frozentreehugger]

I admit I did not look Stockholm up . As per temp was basing what I said on the current temps being talked about at this time . . Yes where I live is solid zone 4 . Ottawa is actually slightly warmer . We have a solid time line I. January into February that is regularly -20c to -30c for several weeks . . Mostly say -15 daytime to -25 at night . My experience is based on this temp .I was aware Stockholm is earner . Just thought my input from a colder region may be of value . To the conversation . I stand by what I said even in warmer climate what the pitfalls are . Fluctuating in temp . Wind protection being key . Awareness of rodents . And there selling anything heated . Time must be considered . Take any temp below freezing there is a major difference between . A overnight temp that low for say a few days . And a consistent temp that low for a week or more . Trees use salts and sugars . In water I. Trunks and roots as anti freeze . Remember water continues to get colder when it freezes . Ie there is a major difference of water froze at -5c and that at -20 c . I would consider about -15c as a. Major hurdle . . Ice is very hard . The ambient air is very dry . At end of the day like I said . A choice should be made . To keep trees froze . In dormancy without fluctuations above freezing . Or above freezing with pisible slight brief freezing . Where watering and light are necessary . And species selection . Some trees need to freeze . . And what I said about heat mats being used by people for roots during recovery . Is echoing by a lot of more modern . Thinkers . As said here about Ryan Neal . Health of tree must be considered . Vigorous growing heavily feed tree is very cold tolerant . PS a great deal of Canada is colder than here . The upper USA into Canada prairies for example . The North American Great Lakes moderate the weather and temp around them . Farther from them it gets a lot colder . The level of protection being used in Stockholm is most likely overkill and can raise other concerns . Hope this helps

 

[Runstenen]

Again big thanks to you @Frozentreehugger for that solid info. Will help me a lot this winter All electric heaters turned off both outside and in the shed for now. We had -13c this night.
Here in Sweden there’s a lot of talk about this years electric bills The government even promised to fund help measures last week ( To pay parts of people’s electric bills ) For example the price for my electricity November 2020 up until November 2022 showed a raise of 1000% ( yes One thousand percent )

 

[Runstenen]

BTW, just saw this
"My deciduous inside the garage get a stable airtemp of 2-4deg Celsius / 35-39 Fahrenheit so i feel pretty safe with that."

That's too warm. You will get bud break in February with those temps. 30-35 is the range you're aiming for with deciduous. Early bud break in the spring will mean you will have to bring your deciduous trees into the house for weeks. Deciduous trees lose 95 percent of their ability to withstand freezing once they have pushed new leaves (and "new leaves" means leaf buds that are only slightly open).

Pretty steady at 32deg F now in the shed

 

[Frozentreehugger]

Again big thanks to you @Frozentreehugger for that solid info. Will help me a lot this winter All electric heaters turned off both outside and in the shed for now. We had -13c this night.
Here in Sweden there’s a lot of talk about this years electric bills The government even promised to fund help measures last week ( To pay parts of people’s electric bills ) For example the price for my electricity November 2020 up until November 2022 showed a raise of 1000% ( yes One thousand percent )

That’s crazy inflation . What’s the excuse . Since Covid we have inflation worst is food . Excuse is cost delay in shipping . Blah blah . Large food companies have record profits But no where near 1000 percent that’s insane

 

[Potawatomi13]

I think i saw that episode. The overwintering episode ?!

Seems this is often spoken when he works trees late Summer thru Winter. Especially for Yamadori. Seems someone ALWAYS asks.