Rafael Najmanovich
Mame
In my case, once I was sure I would not kill it. If you just started, wait at least two more growing seasons before investing and if/when you do, wait another 2 or 3 after if you're going to repot it or style it.
For those who have spent $1,000+ on a specimen to develop, when did you take the plunge?
- Thread starter Agriff
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luvinthemountains
Chumono
Bingo (and a couple of others said it in their own way). Remember learning about "opportunity cost" in high school or college? That is where it is at. One could justifiably spend $1,000 on a tree when they are netting (hourly rate minus cost of working) $200 an hour because they will never, ever get a $50 plant to that level in five cumulative hours of work. Never. But if somebody nets $10 an hour, then that $1,000 tree better save them over 100 hours of work before they think of spending that kind of cash. No, scratch that, they better never think of spending that much unless they have just come into a very large inheritance. It is hard enough keeping yourself in food, healthcare and housing at those kind of wages.
Now, I would guess that many people on here (including myself) have spent a lot acquiring a bunch of nursery stock and small prebonsai in the past year. When I look at it, I wonder whether I would have been happier spending that money on a single, spectacular tree. I haven't been able to answer that question yet. But if I play my cards right, I can turn a couple hundred dollars' worth of stock into several hundred. And if I repeat that enough times, I can parlay my way into a very respectable collection over the next 20 years!
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
In this hobby, only spend what you can afford to lose; whether that’s $10 or $10k.
Except pots. Pots are a great investment, and only increase in value. LOL
Except pots. Pots are a great investment, and only increase in value. LOL
amcoffeegirl
Masterpiece
There was one tree once that I really would’ve spent 1k on. I also loved the pot. It was right before I purchased my home and I haven’t had 1k since. Lol.
Not sure if this is the exact tree that I was thinking of, if not then it was similar to this one.
I think the other one had more white in the pot but this really could be it.
Not sure if this is the exact tree that I was thinking of, if not then it was similar to this one.
I think the other one had more white in the pot but this really could be it.
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vp999
Masterpiece
I think the disposable income factor has a lot to do with the decision too, there are people who spends thousands every year for sporting event season tickets and such and wouldn't go near $1k on a tree.
badatusernames
Omono
I like this answer. I think suddenly things become "for me" in a different way at some point - when I know I'm not going to ruin it (or that "ruining" it can be an acceptable part of the process and what you're paying for is the experience).
I haven't ever spent $1k+ on a tree, but I've spent other prices that give me the willies. That spot is different for everyone. From what I have seen in other hobbies, I also think there is a difference between taking an informed and potentially thrilling risk, and spending unwise money before you are ready. I honestly don't know where I am on the spectrum, but I feel like I'm on a fairly comfortable limb for me, for the time being. I do feel that I've seen people spend money before really even developing taste, chasing... something. An approximation of what it is that they think they like about other things they have seen, perhaps - it's why mallsai sell, isn't it? What did you see in your first tree that you don't now? What do you see now that you didn't then? How did your experience of viewing it change as you learned more?
The most I spent was actually fairly recently, on an ume, and frankly it felt like the choice was out of my hands. I have known I've wanted to get my hands on one, I have known they are known to be quite difficult to find, and I found one that seemed reasonable given all the variables I have at my disposal. So I did it. It's very possible I'm going to realize that they have thirty in the back and you can always find a good one for a decent price if you look hard enough, but my hunch is that this was my shot. It was the species, and it was that one. So I did it.
That's my willies experience with bonsai, and I hope it's an informed and thrilling risk rather than unwise money! I guess to wrap it up, I suggest not delineating things based on dollar amount alone - and that means questioning what you feel you see when you see a $1000 tree, as well as what you see when you see a $3 tree, how knowing the price changes it, and what you would think without it.
badatusernames
Omono
I would also definitely challenge this in general, I think there is a LOT of stuff out there you can get looking pretty good pretty quickly that isn't $1k haha
having NEBG nearby may absolutely warp my vision too though
As an aside, I did hear today that prices used to be wildly, wildly cheaper. I don't know if that's a function of interest or how the trees are cultivated and sold in the US now vs. 20-30 years ago, but I guess things change pretty quickly in this world.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
This is a tricky argument though. Character takes time. Even growing a thick trunk will not get you the same image as a slender pine which grew over 100+ years in a bog somewhere.
My most expensive trees have been around 400E. Which would be about 500 USD. Next year I will give a demo at the european bonsai association show, corona permitting. For that I reserved a 500E tree. That is one of those agd pines from a bog. I discussed my plan with my teacher, who agreed. I think I am getting to a point that I can recognize a lot of the options these types of trees offer. However, for my provate collection I would rather have 10 good trees that were collected at moderate costs and/or puchased at reasonable prices, than 1 tree that cost 1, 2, 5000. But I like the design & first development of trees. I am not in it to have a collection of show-worthy trees.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
How about $1700 on 3 trees? After retirement and had money in IRA to use that was never an option during working years. Inspiration came from Ryan Neils Yamadori Ponderosas and Randy Knights collections. What else did I work for all those years?
LittleDingus
Omono
It's only tricky because our lifetimes are finite
Many bonsai are generational...
In my opinion, the "start with good material" argument is backwards. It should be "don't start with bad material". That's easier to recognize and weeds out waste of time material that will never fit "bonsai" standards while leaving lots of room for the level of skill and time the person has.
The argument that the "better" the material you start with, the better the result can be taken to the extreme that the "material" is no longer "material" but a "finished" tree
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
I've never spent $1000 on material, though I have bought a number of $500 pre-bonsai.
To me, much of the pleasure of bonsai comes from taking raw stock and turning it into a beautiful tree. My biggest problem is not a lack of money for trees... it's a lack of money for pots
I just spent $300 on a pot for one of my elms.
To me, much of the pleasure of bonsai comes from taking raw stock and turning it into a beautiful tree. My biggest problem is not a lack of money for trees... it's a lack of money for pots
I just spent $300 on a pot for one of my elms.
LittleDingus
Omono
My biggest problem is not a lack of money for trees... it's a lack of money for pots
True that!
For me, it's the journey...not the destination. 80% of my material is from seed or plug. Most of my trees cost me pennies
Nursery stock may cost me low 10s of dollars.I've got a redwood that cost me $0.02 for the seed that I've probably invested $500 in over the past few years...much of that on a custom built pot
But fertilizer, grow bags, I germinated it under indoor lighting over the winter, paying the plant sitter when on vacation, etc...it all adds up!It's that investment over years that makes purchased material expensive!
hinmo24t
Masterpiece
a financial advisor would have something to say about that but i do like the notion of 'work hard play hard'
LeoMame
Yamadori
I also believe in this.
My bonsay money usually follows this rule: if I can afford to buy it 20 times, then I can buy.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
This is a difficult, mostly unrewarding path IMO, unless you just like growing seedlings (which can be rewarding on its own). "Bonsai talent" has really nothing to do with growing seedlings. You won't really get any actual bonsai experience for a decade from seed--beyond keeping the root mass flat (and that can be done without much intervention). This approach alone robs you of actually doing bonsai and from having actual bonsai. It can become depressing over the years, if you get out and see what others are doing with more advanced material.
It also saddles you with dozens or hundreds of mostly useless plants that require watering, feeding and up-potting. Most beginner bonsaiists go through the "gotta grow from seed" phase and the "buy one of everything, but don't spend over $10" phase. If they're still doing bonsai 10 years down the line, they then realize they have a yard full of mostly crap, which they sell off or get rid of in favor of more expensive, more developed material.
There is no fallacy in equating quality to money. If you're dealing with the right sellers, you can get wildly good collected and cultivated stock. The oak below was $300. It's roughly 200 years old. It's character is un-reproduceable from seed in anyone's lifetime. The thing is, this kind of tree isn't uncommon, if you look around. Mid and high-end specimen material in the $100 + range is all about age--actual and perceived, as well as time invested in the work setting the foundations for development. You'll say that's what growing from seed does. Yeah, sure, but you aren't going to be around to see any of that. Actual age in the trunks of this material can literally take over 100 years, sometimes 500 +. You won't get that from seedlings while you're alive.
Not saying don't grow from seed. I'm saying make it PART of a larger effort. Bragging about not spending more than $10 on a tree is OK, I guess, but more often than not, it mostly looks like you spent $10 on it...
Attachments
LittleDingus
Omono
There is a lot in there that pre-supposes what an individual's goals (and ethics) are. For the record, I have never considered what I do "bonsai" and I rarely use that word without quotes. 90% of what is posted on this forum is not "bonsai". But, I have and do use most "bonsai" techniques to achieve my goals.
I'm 3+ decades in and haven't gotten bored. I left behind a number of quality trees in a long distance move 10 years ago...and have since started over. For me personally, it is the journey and not the destination.
For others interested in the destination...sure: buy/collect into the "end" stages.
Cost still does not equate quality. You, yourself added the caveat "If you're dealing with the right sellers..." Can you spend big bucks for good material? Yes. If you spend big bucks will you have good material?? Uhm...
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
I guess I don't really get you then. You're posting about bonsai stock on a bonsai forum, yet don't do bonsai...?
And the "it's not about the destination, it's about the journey" really isn't a realistic argument for the vast majority of bonsaiists. At some point if you're doing bonsai, you want an ACTUAL presentable, or at least recognizable, bonsai (of course they're never finished, but some are more finished that others).
And having bought many trees that cost me well over $100 over the years, I can say that yeah, cost does mostly equate to quality if you know what you're looking at. I bought a few higher end collected trees mostly pre-internet. Pics of the stock were faxed to me...I didn't know any of the sellers at the time (Zach Smith, Vito Megna and a few others), but their stock spoke for itself. I found the right sellers on my own, by simply looking around and talking to people (no email, no Internet) at bonsai shows, clubs, looking in print bonsai magazines, etc.
I get that spending big bucks can guarantee nothing, but mostly that is user error. If you're spending big bucks without doing any research, then you get what you get.
Tidal Bonsai
Omono
1. Don't buy trees based on price tag, buy them based on potential. Just because a tree is expensive doesn't always mean that it is good. Trees are expensive because either someone paid a boatload of money to import it, someone is charging a premium because it was collected, someone with a big name is associated with it, or someone grew it out for a LOOONG time. I have a mortgage to pay, family to support, retirement to fund, and 529's for two kids that come first. I am not at the point where I can spend $1,000 for a tree yet. However, I have bought trees for less and sold them for over $1,000. Its all about finding potential!
2. A great piece of advice I got from a knowledgeable club member was "Don't buy trees based on how much you can afford, buy them based on how much you can afford to loose!" Trees can die, only buy more expensive trees when you have the confidence to provide the necessary care, when you have the extra money and feel confident moving it forward.
2. A great piece of advice I got from a knowledgeable club member was "Don't buy trees based on how much you can afford, buy them based on how much you can afford to loose!" Trees can die, only buy more expensive trees when you have the confidence to provide the necessary care, when you have the extra money and feel confident moving it forward.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Yes I have spent that amount plus on a Yamadori with high potential. I purchased it from my teacher and became familiar with its care and development while studying within his program. Top quality collected Yamadori often sell for amounts in excess of the value you suggest.
And you should know how to recognize that quality and whether or not you have the training and skill to develop the material before you purchase the material. A good sign that you are reaching this point is when you can explain how to assess and evaluate material to others with confidence and clarity. This stage is best achieved through the guidance and hands on experience of working with a professional or knowledgeable teacher who has this level of material for teaching purposes.
To learn to recognize top material one must see it in the presence of comparable material and study the characteristics and details that make the material valuable and unique for that species.
Great material can deteriorate in the wrong hands, just as refined trees can grow out and lose their value in the wrong hands. So I would not suggest buying high quality material before you are capable of dealing with it, unless you are doing so under the guidance and supervision of someone who has that level of skill and training.
Bonsai spending is discretionary for most. The amount one spends is dependant on what they can afford and what they feel comfortable with.
I personally feel that discretionary spending should never affect ones primary budget. Basically it is money that will not be missed or needed in the future at least that is my rule of thumb. Or as my dad suggested, if you can pay cash for it and it won't be needed for something else then you can afford it. Never borrow for something unless it is a house or a car was the original concept. So that meant for many years, expenses were limited to essentials rather than discretionary spending.
Age and character in Bonsai develops over many lifetimes.
I would suggest two situations where spending significant amounts on trees can be justified if one can afford to do so.
1.Yamadori with high potential for top show quality!
2. Refined, developed trees that can be taken to a higher level.
From an investment point of view, higher quality pots can be a justified as well, perhaps even more so as the risk of deterioration is lower than with trees! And the demand is greater than the supply. Caveat. This adventure requires the same process of training and skill to recognize and select quality so the investment grows in value. Once again, seeing, handling and having the details explained is paramount to internalizing this level of knowledge.
And you should know how to recognize that quality and whether or not you have the training and skill to develop the material before you purchase the material. A good sign that you are reaching this point is when you can explain how to assess and evaluate material to others with confidence and clarity. This stage is best achieved through the guidance and hands on experience of working with a professional or knowledgeable teacher who has this level of material for teaching purposes.
To learn to recognize top material one must see it in the presence of comparable material and study the characteristics and details that make the material valuable and unique for that species.
Great material can deteriorate in the wrong hands, just as refined trees can grow out and lose their value in the wrong hands. So I would not suggest buying high quality material before you are capable of dealing with it, unless you are doing so under the guidance and supervision of someone who has that level of skill and training.
Bonsai spending is discretionary for most. The amount one spends is dependant on what they can afford and what they feel comfortable with.
I personally feel that discretionary spending should never affect ones primary budget. Basically it is money that will not be missed or needed in the future at least that is my rule of thumb. Or as my dad suggested, if you can pay cash for it and it won't be needed for something else then you can afford it. Never borrow for something unless it is a house or a car was the original concept. So that meant for many years, expenses were limited to essentials rather than discretionary spending.
Age and character in Bonsai develops over many lifetimes.
I would suggest two situations where spending significant amounts on trees can be justified if one can afford to do so.
1.Yamadori with high potential for top show quality!
2. Refined, developed trees that can be taken to a higher level.
From an investment point of view, higher quality pots can be a justified as well, perhaps even more so as the risk of deterioration is lower than with trees! And the demand is greater than the supply. Caveat. This adventure requires the same process of training and skill to recognize and select quality so the investment grows in value. Once again, seeing, handling and having the details explained is paramount to internalizing this level of knowledge.
Agriff
Mame
I think this sums up my worst fears around not investing. I'm someone who ruminates a lot on just how short life is. I'm 31 years old but if I spent the next 10 years putzing around, that's like...1/4 of the remaining years that I could reasonably expect to live.
Now that's not to say that everyone who grows from seed or nurtures saplings from a young age is putzing, but I know that if I found myself in that position it would be because I was too timid to take any risks and get what I really wanted out of the hobby. In other words, it would be a regret and not a meaningful decision.
