for all of us DE fans......

[LanceMac10]

I would really like to see Akadama under an electron microscope. I don't have access to one anymore. Here is a pic of DE from EP's website. Small tubes but tubes...

I'ma take these curlers and make the best soil eva', baby boy!!!

 

[milehigh_7]

I'ma take these curlers and make the best soil eva', baby boy!!!

That is freaking amazing!!! LOL I'm crying!!!

 

[Shima]

in Oz (called "diatomite")

That's where mine came from. And that's what it should be called everywhere. When I see "DE" I think of the fine particles used to filter H20 or repel slugs/snails.

 

[sdavis]

At the risk of this devolving into its own side argument, I’d like to make it clear this will never happen. The mountain is largely protected land and the various conservation and environmental groups will very likely succeed in blocking any mining.

There are probably LOTS of opportunities to find akadama deposits in Oregon.

 

[petegreg]

Our cat litter and European is not the same beast.

It is. Only few cat litter products are made of DE. The list is available on HH's web site.

 

[crust]

At the risk of this devolving into its own side argument, I’d like to make it clear this will never happen. The mountain is largely protected land and the various conservation and environmental groups will very likely succeed in blocking any mining.

I have heard that akadama soil deposits have been found in other mountainous areas out west, not just Mt. Hood, however, once extrapolated as to the cost of mining, it would be unmarketable expensive anyway.

 

[RobertB]

The whole thing with turface not giving back water and DE potentially drying out and sucking water out roots makes me very nervous to use DE. turface has worked fine for my trees as all are in development. Trunk development that is. Sometimes I'm away for a weekend and I either wrap the pot in plastic or pile a ton of spahgnum on, sometimes both. DE would make me very nervous when not able to water every day. What about a half to half mix of turface / DE.?

 

[jriddell88]

experiment, don't you think any porous material will try to suck water from anywhere near by? think about it, if your nervous you need to use particles that hold more water, and water less often, whatever suits your climate,. invest in a good watering system. just because Ryan said it may be a good substitute doesn't mean we have run and follow him holding his pants pocket, figure out what works for you , your climate, and time , if it works, use it , don't try and fix it if its not broken

 

[crust]

I’ve been using DE for 4 growing seasons and have not seen any roots growing into and/or through the particles.

Here’s an Acer Macrophyllum grown in 1:1:1 (pumice, scoria, DE) in a grow bag
View attachment 175685View attachment 175686

What kind/brand of DE is this--

 

[wireme]

I have heard that akadama soil deposits have been found in other mountainous areas out west, not just Mt. Hood, however, once extrapolated as to the cost of mining, it would be unmarketable expensive anyway.

I dunno, if your're talking big mine, real equipment then most likely way too expensive. If you think small scale dirtbag style then maybe it could be done. You know, old tractor loader, pick up truck, DIY sifter of some kind... Never get rich, maybe make some money working very hard?
Might have to find it on private land to avoid expensive environmental assessments and red tape, maybe a small enough claim doesn't need all that. Something like what the Calidama guy has been doing perhaps?

 

[Victorim]

Me in work in the summer.. "just popping home to water the trees" "what now?" "Yes there in DE mun!"

And "can we go away for.." "No.. Because.."

 

[jriddell88]

I dunno, if your're talking big mine, real equipment then most likely way too expensive. If you think small scale dirtbag style then maybe it could be done. You know, old tractor loader, pick up truck, DIY sifter of some kind... Never get rich, maybe make some money working very hard?
Might have to find it on private land to avoid expensive environmental assessments and red tape, maybe a small enough claim doesn't need all that. Something like what the Calidama guy has been doing perhaps?

damn I was thinking about that calidama guy yesterday while reading this thread, couldn't remember what is was called! thanks!, poor kids wearing those cheap ass dust masks lol

 

[parhamr]

What kind/brand of DE is this--

Down To Earth


It’s almost entirely free of fines and has a decent distribution of particle sizes all lesser than 1/2 inch. I’m not sure if this distributor still sells it, but I believe this is from the big DE mine in Nevada.

 

[wsteinhoff]

I don't think DE really sucks too much water from the roots when it dries. I have been using the NAPA floor dry as a soil component and have gotten great roots and I also let it dry out. I have plenty of succulents and plants that dry out in between watering and nothing has died because the DE pulled the water from it.

From my personal experience the stuff is great. Last spring I had trees with much better roots when I went to repot than they previously had. When I repotted a tree that was in akadama I wasn't that impressed. It's now in DE and granite grit. When it's repotted again I'll find if it made an improvement.

 

[Gaitano]

I don't remember Ryan saying where he is getting his DE, does anyone have an idea? I was curious if he is using a different source, than Sorce.

I'm not positive about this, but it may be through American Bonsai. I thought I recalled him addressing this question on a Q&A in November. The question was specifically asked about Am Bonsai's Ultra agg products.

 

[Rose Mary]

Woah, dude....that's crazy!

Wow the tubes and holes are so perfectly round, thought at first I was looking at something man made with cans?

 

[Rose Mary]

Down To Earth
View attachment 175767

It’s almost entirely free of fines and has a decent distribution of particle sizes all lesser than 1/2 inch. I’m not sure if this distributor still sells it, but I believe this is from the big DE mine in Nevada.

my local farmers coop said they could get this in 28$ for 25 lbs. Not sure it is worth that much to me tho I would like the particle size

 

[justBonsai]

I would really like to see Akadama under an electron microscope. I don't have access to one anymore. Here is a pic of DE from EP's website. Small tubes but tubes...

Diatomaceous earth is made from diatoms which are microscopic organisms that have silica shells. They can be incredibly ornate symmetrical shapes that are quite interesting to look at. There are thousands of different diatom species and shapes so it would be impossible for that single image to be representative of the entire bag. Also those tubes are on the sub-micron scale and likely too small for roots to enter.

Also I am a bit skeptical on the whole tubes with roots growing through them. Perhaps it was more of an example for Ryan to conceptually demonstrate the benefits of akadama. The way I see it is that akadama has a high surface roughness and some air retention within the particle. Roots are attracted to it and the particle itself is soft enough that they can penetrate and break the particle. I believe he was saying that he does not use fired akadama which would be sterile and too hard for roots to break through.

I used to work in a university lab and could have taken SEM images of different soil substrates if I was asked a year ago, but unfortunately I cannot image them now. I do have some SEM images of pumice but I wish I had the other soil samples on hand then.

I feel as if most of these conclusion and observations are purely qualitative and that's fine. If it is proven and shown to work, then that's good. But too much speculation on the underlying science can misinform and confuse people. So far DE has worked well for me. I use it in my mix as an akadama substitute, so 1/3 DE, 1/3 pumice, 1/3 lava. Sometimes I use bark which works great. I think Ryan mentioned that for many of his trees he needs the soil to function for 6 years or so to build the heart of his root system. Bark only lasts 3 years or so, but if you are repotting your tree in that time frame then it can be a good component.

 

[Captnignit]

I'm also a bit skeptical of DE drying out roots. Is this just anecdotal or is there any data backing it up?

 

[jriddell88]

Why do you make these things so complicated !!????

 

[PiñonJ]

Also I am a bit skeptical on the whole tubes with roots growing through them.

OK, there are two facts here.
1. The microscopic stucture of akadama is tubular.
2. Roots penetrate akadama and break it into smaller particles.
Both of these facts have been demonstrated. Ryan has communicated to me and to others (in class, not on the live streams) that the second fact follows from the first and, since no other bonsai substrate exhibits the same behavior, it doesn’t take a great leap of faith to believe that this is the case. Regardless of the reason, the objective results are the same.