for all of us DE fans......

[milehigh_7]

I'm also a bit skeptical of DE drying out roots. Is this just anecdotal or is there any data backing it up?

It's as solid as anecdotal can be

 

[milehigh_7]

That's where mine came from. And that's what it should be called everywhere. When I see "DE" I think of the fine particles used to filter H20 or repel slugs/snails.

It's exactly the same just a different size.

 

[justBonsai]

OK, there are two facts here.
1. The microscopic stucture of akadama is tubular.
2. Roots penetrate akadama and break it into smaller particles.
Both of these facts have been demonstrated. Ryan has communicated to me and to others (in class, not on the live streams) that the second fact follows from the first and, since no other bonsai substrate exhibits the same behavior, it doesn’t take a great leap of faith to believe that this is the case. Regardless of the reason, the objective results are the same.

I can accept those as facts but the ascribed relation is anecdotal.

You can reason and present hypothesis for anything but it doesn't mean it's true. It's just a possibility. Just because Ryan said it am I supposed to accept it as true?

I can understand the benefits of akadama but as far as the mechanism and interaction between the roots there's nothing there to prove the behavior is as Ryan says other than just his word. As I recall akadama is decomposed pumice? If so it is probable that it does have pores and networking throughout the particle. But you have to consider scale of these holes and compare it to the scale of the root tip. Certainly not large enough for penetration. I think breaking of akadama more has to do with the integrity of the particles and the fact they retain some air and moisture. The root tips are attracted to the akadama bearing O2 and air and the unfired akadama is soft enough to be split by the roots. This would be macroscopic behavior and not the implied microscopic behavior of roots entering these very small tubes.

This brings up a second point in that the key value for your third soil component lies within the balance of water and air retention properties. (CEC as well although that is a different discussion) Which is why DE, not bearing a network of pores or tubes, is a candidate as a good alternative.

 

[sorce]

I can accept those as facts but the ascribed relation is anecdotal.

You can reason and present hypothesis for anything but it doesn't mean it's true. It's just a possibility. Just because Ryan said it am I supposed to accept it as true?

I can understand the benefits of akadama but as far as the mechanism and interaction between the roots there's nothing there to prove the behavior is as Ryan says other than just his word. As I recall akadama is decomposed pumice? If so it is probable that it does have pores and networking throughout the particle. But you have to consider scale of these holes and compare it to the scale of the root tip. Certainly not large enough for penetration. I think breaking of akadama more has to do with the integrity of the particles and the fact they retain some air and moisture. The root tips are attracted to the akadama bearing O2 and air and the unfired akadama is soft enough to be split by the roots. This would be macroscopic behavior and not the implied microscopic behavior of roots entering these very small tubes.

This brings up a second point in that the key value for your third soil component lies within the balance of water and air retention properties. (CEC as well although that is a different discussion) Which is why DE, not bearing a network of pores or tubes, is a candidate as a good alternative.

Partially with you....
I looked it up...
.008 inch or 1/125 inch is the size of the fine root hairs....only in deciduous tree.
Myc is the conifer system.
Semi-random.

What I CAN'T stand....
Is the "mirror image"....BS.

If this were true....

Either roots don't continue growing on say...Mugo after summer....BS.

Or if they do...

Our Mugos would suddenly backbud and begin growing after summer..BS.

And the best one!

When we chop our trees to a stump on top...
The roots will cut themselves too!

No, no it certainly is not a mirror image.

Sorce

 

[justBonsai]

Partially with you....
I looked it up...
.008 inch or 1/125 inch is the size of the fine root hairs....only in deciduous tree.
Myc is the conifer system.
Semi-random.

What I CAN'T stand....
Is the "mirror image"....BS.

If this were true....

Either roots don't continue growing on say...Mugo after summer....BS.

Or if they do...

Our Mugos would suddenly backbud and begin growing after summer..BS.

And the best one!

When we chop our trees to a stump on top...
The roots will cut themselves too!

No, no it certainly is not a mirror image.

Sorce

.008 inches is 203.2 microns. I'll see if I can dig out my SEM images of pumice but assuming akadama has a comparative networked structure those pores are around the range of 10-50 microns in size. I just can't see such a large root infiltrating very small tunnels.

 

[just.wing.it]

Ryan makes it sound as if the only way to get dense, small ramification is to use Akadama.
I just disagree...
Plants in nature become dwarfed without having Akadama's "scaling effect".

One more thing, Ryan speaks of Akadama as you'd expect him to, he was formally trained in Japan by someone who uses 3/4 AK mix.

I'm interested to here Bjorn's take on it.

 

[sorce]

Ryan makes it sound as if the only way to get dense, small ramification is to use Akadama.

"Makes it sound" only because we are stuck feeling people have been "pushing" it on us.

But Ryan knows better than to make us want a product with high overhead and outrageous shipping cost, when he himself is finding an alternative....

Better to snag them monthly subscription costs!

Sure, I wish the education was perfectly real.....but the world ain't....
So...as with everything else..
Accept your personal % of how real it is....
And utilize the real information in application to your success.....

Fretting over the "exact science" of something we can, (with years of Japanese experience), see for ourselves is true to that personal % degree....(grain of salt)
Is a waste of time we can be using to further educate ourselves.

.............

One thing I know from observation.....

When I pull a tree out of a basket with DE....

I always wonder where the hell the roots are!

Too small to see!

I literally question how the tree was even growing!

So rather than fret over microns....
I accept what I can see...
More importantly....
What I can NOT see!

And just go with the only conclusion left!

There's a ton of fine feeder roots growing in that constantly soaked DE!

They say swamp trees have tight masses of fine roots. Apply %.

Observation. Observation. Observation.

Conscious in depth Multi questioning Obserfreakinvation!

Sorce

 

[Paulpash]

I have used DE for 7 years in the UK (Sanicat Pink cat litter) & imo it's superior to Akadama. It does not turn into mush so the roots sit in cold, airless soil all through our wet winters. It's highly recyclable & long lasting & it repels root insects such as aphids & vine weevil grubs. If you mix it up with some pumice you can grow white or black pines in it with success. Mugo & Scots pines that prefer it damper happily grow in it straight.

I have not worked a rootball yet that I thought looked unhealthy or had any anaerobic zones in it. Another bonus is it's clean and you can see to work the roots properly without having to constantly hose off the muddiness. I shivered watching him scrape the stewartia rootball - did it look a healthy environment for roots to you?

 

[sorce]

repels root insects such as aphids & vine weevil grubs

I post pics of earthworms in my DE to dispell this myth.

Dry DE may have this effect.
Wet DE does not!

That's another reverse placebo....
Can't go thinking you are safe safe.

Sorce

 

[justBonsai]

"Makes it sound" only because we are stuck feeling people have been "pushing" it on us.

But Ryan knows better than to make us want a product with high overhead and outrageous shipping cost, when he himself is finding an alternative....

Better to snag them monthly subscription costs!

Sure, I wish the education was perfectly real.....but the world ain't....
So...as with everything else..
Accept your personal % of how real it is....
And utilize the real information in application to your success.....

Fretting over the "exact science" of something we can, (with years of Japanese experience), see for ourselves is true to that personal % degree....(grain of salt)
Is a waste of time we can be using to further educate ourselves.

.............

One thing I know from observation.....

When I pull a tree out of a basket with DE....

I always wonder where the hell the roots are!

Too small to see!

I literally question how the tree was even growing!

So rather than fret over microns....
I accept what I can see...
More importantly....
What I can NOT see!

And just go with the only conclusion left!

There's a ton of fine feeder roots growing in that constantly soaked DE!

They say swamp trees have tight masses of fine roots. Apply %.

Observation. Observation. Observation.

Conscious in depth Multi questioning Obserfreakinvation!

Sorce

Yeah the underlying science really isn't too important if you have proven results. Least in bonsai. I think I said right off the bat if its shown to work, that's great. But Ryan's style of lecturing heavily involves explaining the science or the underlying reason why something works. I think it's good and different from what other bonsai pros do. He has a background in horticulture so he does have some credibility. Even so it doesn't mean his word is gospel and must be taken at face value. I wasn't trying to make a big deal out of this but I said I was skeptical and got called out.

I'll believe any suggestions Ryan shares because he knows his stuff. His money is where his mouth is and he has proven results. But knowledge of results does not equate to knowledge of the cause. The other day a 4.0 earthquake hit near my apartment. We can agree that the earthquakes make things shake. But then when you start telling me the shaking is caused my lighting bolts hitting the earth I'm gonna call you out.

Not to say that Ryan's explanation of the structure and root interaction of akadama is wrong. Perhaps larger tube like architecture exists in the particle. I don't have first hand knowledge of akadama's structure myself. Hence why I said I was skeptical instead of straight out saying, no he is wrong.

 

[sorce]

I'm with you @bleumeon ....

Good discussion.

Just brainstorming to find the real real.

Even though....it doesn't even matter!

Doesn't Even! DE!

Lol!

Sorce

 

[GGB]

@sorce perhaps your red wiggler is unharmed because it lacks an exoskeleton. Regardless of the insect repellent qualities, I'm picking up my first bag in about 3 hours. I can't argue with the photos of fine feeders being posted.
I thought I was into the science side of things but this thread is making me feel like a caveman. I'm full blown "meh it works" at this point. Only one way to prove it

 

[Paulpash]

I post pics of earthworms in my DE to dispell this myth.

Dry DE may have this effect.
Wet DE does not!

That's another reverse placebo....
Can't go thinking you are safe safe.

Sorce

I know I am safe regarding root aphids and vine weevil grubs which are not welcome in a bonsai root system. I know this because we did a poll on weetrees.co.uk asking about the members about their experience of using DE - not one reported problems when using a totally inorganic mix consisting primarily of DE.

I have worked many nursery rootballs and have found grubs in over 50% of them. When switched to DE this has disappeared. I have about 75 trees in DE at present and I work about 20 trees per year and I have yet to find any grubs or root aphids in any of them. Across 150 repots in 7 years and no grubs or aphids - it can't be chance...

Earthworms aren't pernicious but I ask myself why you have them unless you have a proportion of organic matter in there too? My substrate is totally inorganic - there is nothing for them to consume so why would they occupy my bonsai pots?

 

[Gary McCarthy]

Down To Earth
View attachment 175767

It’s almost entirely free of fines and has a decent distribution of particle sizes all lesser than 1/2 inch. I’m not sure if this distributor still sells it, but I believe this is from the big DE mine in Nevada.

Sounds like this product has a better particle size than the NAPA 8822 & Optisorb. I'd like to try a bag if I can find a distributor with a reasonable shipping charge.

 

[sorce]

perhaps your red wiggler is unharmed because it lacks an exoskeleton.

Ahhhh...but perhaps it is because wet DE does not have the drying, or irritating effect the dust does.

it can't be chance...

I agree it can't be chance....

But without purposely introducing them, to see if they continue to live and breed...we dont know whether DE kills them, or prevents them in some other manner.

It's the outright killing them I doubt.

Makes me question the size of roots said pest like to attach to....
And wether it could possibly be that the lack of large juicy roots they may favor, that keeps them away.

However small it may be....
There is still a window of opportunity.

Earthworms aren't pernicious but I ask myself why you have them unless you have a proportion of organic matter in there too? My substrate is totally inorganic - there is nothing for them to consume so why would they occupy my bonsai pots?

I love your insight so please don't feel I am arguing!

I use dirty moss...reckon the worms are introduced that way, some from being close to, or in earth.
I have yet to make an opinion on wether they are good or bad. Dont see a need to introduce them, whereas with centipedes....I totally do.

Of totally inorganic soil.

Another right tiny window!

But no soil is Completely inorganic.

If just flushed algae, dust, roots themselves, dead insects, life on earth!

Seconds after being sterilized, and put into a pot, organics get present. Maybe not a worm meal, but organics nonetheless.

Sorce

 

[Paulpash]

Sorce, DE does kill insects / beetles, here's one study but there is a lot of evidence online if you look.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4025297

The dust residue is abrasive and works its way behind the exoskeleton where it punctures the beetle's body causing dehydration. Similarly, any soft bodied grub (such as the vine weevil) would not be able to survive in such an abrasive environment.

 

[sorce]

Sorce, DE does kill insects / beetles, here's one study but there is a lot of evidence online if you look.

I can not argue that....

Only focusing on the difference between dry DE dust....and Wet DE soil, with further contamination by inevitable organics.

Wet and dry.

A tree grows in wet soil.
But will die in the same soil if dry.

A beetle dies from dry DE dust small enough to get under its exoskeleton.
I am not 100% certain by any means, but I am quite certain my pots do not contain this deadly dry dust.

Sorce

 

[thumblessprimate1]

I'm going to try this dead microscopic organism soil. ?

 

[CasAH]

Sounds like this product has a better particle size than the NAPA 8822 & Optisorb. I'd like to try a bag if I can find a distributor with a reasonable shipping charge.

They have a list of sellers on their website. There are six or seven in the Chicagoland area, one I few miles from me. I will have to see if it is in stock.

You may want to see if anyone stocks in New York.

 

[PiñonJ]

But no soil is Completely inorganic.

That's exactly right. If it were, your tree wouldn't be anywhere near as healthy and disease resistant.