Foliage pads

[Vance Wood]

Sorrry Vance,

that was not a dodge, I was more focused on your emotional response. Apologies.

In Fine Art, the Gatekeeper is the Art Critique.For good or for bad, you have to get them to look at you, before you get to a museum. If they love you entry is easy, if they hate you entry is easy. If they ignore you, well..............

So far, all I see and read is folk shouting --- Look at us!!!!!

Acknowledge my effort, my life had worth, I was not born to die.
And so on.

All this pad talk is Philosophy.

In the time of Leonardo - painting was a craft - Poetry and other practices were Art forms. After much work Leonardo and others got painting to the Level of Fine Art.
What do you think you guys are doing?

So Vancenado where are you going?
Good Day
Anthony

Jerking off? LOL sorry about that I just could not resist.

I do not think this "Pad talk" is philosophy, that's like saying all of this torso talk in sculpture is just philosophy. Pads are to bonsai, to a greater or lesser degree, especially with conifers, one of the most defining features that create the illusion of age to a young tree. The whole idea of bonsai is to create the image of a full grown tree as it might be seen through the wrong end of a telescope. I don't think this is the feature that we have discussed. Bonsai is not just a tree in a pot like a blob of clay on a potters wheel to become anything the artist wishes, but it is a tree that is supposed to represent something that it is not, a full grown ancient tree. If you desire to have the tree represent something else then you are not doing bonsai. You are using bonsai techniques to make something altogether different.

 

[ABCarve]

So Vancenado where are you going?
Good Day
Anthony

And once you get there, how long are you gonna stay??

 

[Nybonsai12]

I think he speaks of "the gatekeeper"

So this is who we are trying to impress? I knew it!

 

[ABCarve]

Jerking off? LOL sorry about that I just could not resist.

I do not think this "Pad talk" is philosophy, that's like saying all of this torso talk in sculpture is just philosophy.

Actually it is. Art historians write about it constantly as that torso keeps changing throughout history. It keeps changing because the culture does and "why" it changes is the debate. We don't have photos of bonsai of the past although in some cases we have the actual tree. The trees are restyled and change as does taste. We have drawings of old trees and they are different what we have now. How representational those drawings are??? Who knows?

 

[ABCarve]

Hey Catfish!!!! Who'da thunk such a simple question.......

 

[youngsai]

Nycbonsai, that's precisely what I was thinking!

Anthony, I don't understand why you advocate not speaking about certain topics, in fact, in most topics you either discourage or otherwise say something to the effect of, oh great here we are talking about this again. And this talk is philosophy but still this information will be processed and will affect the styling of trees.

So please, think about the young like me, who need to see these discussions in real time to build a strong foundation. I tried mentioning what you said about close up trees not using pads extensively and others said I was wrong. However I read recently Harry Harrington s bonsai Inspiration 2 & he made a very similar case and showed precise examples.

Vance, I must say I appreciate your responses but sometimes you feel quite confrontational of others opinions...

Anthony, could u you post pictures to show your theories, I for one would love to see the close up view without pads and perhaps a close up view with pads that looks disorienting to the eye??

You know, I'm in my third year of engineering, and all my classes have us in large groups solving problems, if we did not argue and discuss the theoretics of a problem before we choose a solution, we would miss almost all of our most innovative solutions. There is no reason any discussion should be stopped, unless it already has a unanimously agreed upon decision. Anything still up for debate needs to be spoken about until a consensus is reached. Furthermore, everyone needs to thicken their skin up. To be so sensitive to criticism and opposite opinion is foolish, at the same time criticism should be offered with consideration of the criticised.

 

[Poink88]

Youngsai,

Think proportions.

A mature tree may not look like having pads up close but step back a few hundred yards and what do you see? Look at a forest from afar and they will look like broccoli (depends on what your local trees are).

A bonsai...being miniaturized tree mimic a real tree. You need to find a good balance to deliver that "feeling" of mature tree and keep the tree healthy (even if you may want it to show a battered tree). Too thin a foliage and the tree may deteriorate or die. Too dense and it will look like a topiary. I have a few that look like pom-poms while developing but are thinned down at least once a year (some several times) to see what is in there and "guide/train" it where I want it to go. If I ever show...I am sure it will be the thinned version and not the pom-pom.

The devil is in the details. Two trees may look the same from a distance but a properly trained tree will shine once you come close to it. That is why winter silhouette (for D trees) is very famous. It shows the details usually hidden by foliage.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance, I must say I appreciate your responses but sometimes you feel quite confrontational of others opinions...

I don't mean to be confrontational; but I am passionate, and usually have a lot to say about any one subject, a trait that tends to make me a target. I have always thought this stuff out and in doing so have an abundance of remarks on something. My passion for bonsai is sometimes taken as confrontational, by some, it is not meant to be but, from a philosophical point of view it is an abhorrence to the practice of throwing Bull Shit at Bull Shit. This just makes a bigger pile of crap than you had in the beginning. No one learns anything and the problem has become even more unintelligible. I always try to throw the truth as I see it.

 

[Cypress]

Hey Catfish!!!! Who'da thunk such a simple question.......

Oh god this thread is still going... and anthony is still talking about art... Bahahahaha do you see why I had to run away form this thread? This is great.

 

[Cypress]

Look at a forest from afar and they will look like broccoli (depends on what your local trees are).

Yes. In some areas your forests may be more asparagus like in appearance, or even comparable to a hillside of artichoke.

 

[ABCarve]

Oh god this thread is still going... and anthony is still talking about art... Bahahahaha do you see why I had to run away form this thread? This is great.

I think I came in at ...."Here we go again"

 

[Anthony]

Youngsai,

I left the historical information, and the advice to go out into the world, and either draw or somehow take notes on trees. Studying 10 to 20 individuals of the same type.
To understand volume, by if possible, walking around the tree.

To see a tree's shape, you have to be able to view the whole tree in one look.

In looking you will understand what a pad is [ also I believe called the stork's leg]
You will also see how many trees solve their branch problems.

Please note my trees are Tropical, and they have a different way of solving their problems.
For example, the Buttonwood, which is a survivor shrub in Miami, is a tree on our side. Prized for the beauty of the trunk and large domes of green. Not the wannabe Shimpaku white wood.
It is an often 30' wide by 40' tall tree in the back zone of the swamps.

Okay, now look closely at the branching and branchlets.

Here is a samaan

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dJ7g-P6lJ...bZKkgmfXmA/s1600/Trembesi-(Samanea+saman).jpg

http://i26.servimg.com/u/f26/15/66/48/20/saman10.jpg

A poui

http://stluciaweddingguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/poui.jpg

http://www.cactusplus.co.uk/PhotoAlbum3/pink poui.jpg

Immortelle

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EvPAyHvhVHU/ReJYNK7W2BI/AAAAAAAAADE/lU4Ho762UbA/s320/004.jpg

Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Youngsai,

pages from the Mustard Seed Garden manual of painting [ I have access to a copy ]
you can borrow from a library.

Look closely at the drawings and see how many trees look like them
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wo4u6E-xR...ink+painting+techniqes+how+to+paint+trees.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lZzfjsykl...AT4/1sREt8PM1o8/s1600/IMG_20130619_204700.jpg

Note this one is from the Phoenix Bonsai site - Chih Kan - straight trunks
http://www.phoenixbonsai.com/Terms/chihkanMSG.JPG

http://www.anthony-lombardi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/manual006-391x500.jpg


http://www.anthony-lombardi.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/manual004-400x500.jpg


And yes, the Japanese also studied this book.

More trees -

old pine
http://gossamerstrands.com/AsiaPhil105/105images/pinetree_2.jpg

younger pines
http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/g...s-in-the-summer-arboretum-or-in-the-woods.jpg

elm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Blismes_elm_2007.jpg

swamp cypress
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Bald_cypress_Atchafalaya_Basin.jpg

hackberry
http://api.ning.com/files/pS818YQBy...OIz-sgUjVJttKOx2cqIkIepw26MIAGT/HAckberry.jpg

I encourage you to trace these images to clearly see the branches.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Anthony]

Youngsai - drawing designs

Fukien tea
http://i26.servimg.com/u/f26/15/66/48/20/scan_510.jpg

Fukien tea
http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/15/66/48/20/jesse10.jpg

Serissa - a root - design
http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/15/66/48/20/ibc_se10.jpg

Actual Serissa
http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/15/66/48/20/ravi_i10.jpg

Seen on BSG - Gmelina - the drawing that controlled/s the 3" cutting
http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/15/66/48/20/scan13.jpg

Sageretia design
http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/15/66/48/20/drawin11.jpg

Sageretia article
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t11987-look-ma-there-be-sageretia-ts-and-they-be-from-cuttings

What a pad looks like
http://i76.servimg.com/u/f76/15/66/48/20/jesse210.jpg

Beginning of a Pine from seed
http://i80.servimg.com/u/f80/15/66/48/20/pine_d10.jpg

Hope this is enough.
Good Day
Anthony