Foliage pads

[Vance Wood]

Hee hee,
Guys thanks muchly.

I am afraid what you are all saying comes down to, what I tried to explain, you guys have TV or Camera eyes.

Humans see with two eyes, and the images formed are a blend. When viewing/making sculpture in the round, two eyes are needed. What do you think a bonsai is?

Antony I really like you but you are trying to have it both ways. You have it that we are looking with camera or TV eyes? Your words. That means to me we have only a2D perspective on bonsai, And then: in making sculpture in the round two eyes are needed. I'm sorry but this does not make sense. You claim, if I understand you correctly, we are not understanding bonsai from a 3D perspective. How do you reconcile that last several post that I have put up that deal with the issue specifically.

 

[ABCarve]

Hi Anthony. Actually, this is not true. Although having a tree look good from different angles can be important. As far as viewing criteria. Trees are meant to be viewed with one front and your eye level in the middle of the tree. Distance is not really a factor. Pads are relative to a tree, not the view. See pics.

Rob

These two pic are from different points of view. The second shot has a lower camera angle which makes the tree appear to be elevated.

 

[Anthony]

Vance,

if you take an image of your tree, and it has volume.

The camera will flatten the volume into a mass,and things like the negative spaces, and curves etc. will go out of wack. Remember the camera adds 10 lbs bit, slim faces look better than full faces, models tend to be twiggy or coat hangers, to take advantage of this situation.

So then you start, thinning your tree, because it looks too lush, and try to fix the negative spaces, work around how fat your branches, branchlets have become.

Everytime I photograph a tree, we have to thin in order for it not to look too bushy.What is left is not what months/years were spent growing/training.

Eventually, you start training so the images look good. In reality, the tree looks warped,but you can no longer see it.

We could only discuss this, by visiting each other's gardens and seeing in reality.

Old Chinese tale.
A handsome man is shipwrecked on an island only inhabited by ugly people. He is treated as the ugliest man on the island. One day he smears his face with coal dust and is accepted as suddenly having become very handsome.

** when the majority, accept a convention, truth grows wings and flies away.***

Most painters today, work from photos, and those that plein air, do a 2 hour special.
Ever notice how well these pieces reproduce or reduce ?
Plein aire, meant 2hrs daily same time for 2 weeks, and then touched up in a studio.
Offer little for much money - scams.[ Modernism ]

A traditionally trained painter uses his eyes and studies, to paint an image.
The idea comes from imagination, before anything else.
Today,many copy live models and add a background.

Image with a camera, without the special adaptations a Titian, or Rubens or Veronese or Raphael, see what happens, same problem as the Bonsai.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[october]

Vance,

if you take an image of your tree, and it has volume.

The camera will flatten the volume into a mass,and things like the negative spaces, and curves etc. will go out of wack. Remember the camera adds 10 lbs bit, slim faces look better than full faces, models tend to be twiggy or coat hangers, to take advantage of this situation.

So then you start, thinning your tree, because it looks too lush, and try to fix the negative spaces, work around how fat your branches, branchlets have become.

Everytime I photograph a tree, we have to thin in order for it not to look too bushy.What is left is not what months/years were spent growing/training.

Eventually, you start training so the images look good. In reality, the tree looks warped,but you can no longer see it.

We could only discuss this, by visiting each other's gardens and seeing in reality.

There is a definite difference, sometimes, in the photo of a tree and the tree in reality. Even taking the picture and inch or so to one side or above and below the center of the tree can change the look of the tree. In some cases, as this has happened to me, a tree looked good in person, but not matter at what angle, the tree did not photo graph well. The solution was to really look at the tree. Assess what the camera is saying. Re-evaluate the tree. After much review and contemplation, making changes to the tree handled this problem. The tree now looks good in photos and in person.

It is also true that trees tend to look fuller in pics than in person. However, this is not really an issue. Simply because this comes down to a health issue. If a tree looks a bit full in pics, but in person it looks sparce. You are obviously not going to strip down more foliage and risk the health of the tree to take a good pic.

The camera can be used in an evaluating capacity. It will show you things you may not have noticed. It can be a useful tool not only in bonsai, but all art.

Rob

 

[Vance Wood]

There is a definite difference, sometimes, in the photo of a tree and the tree in reality. Even taking the picture and inch or so to one side or above and below the center of the tree can change the look of the tree. In some cases, as this has happened to me, a tree looked good in person, but not matter at what angle, the tree did not photo graph well. The solution was to really look at the tree. Assess what the camera is saying. Re-evaluate the tree. After much review and contemplation, making changes to the tree handled this problem. The tree now looks good in photos and in person.

It is also true that trees tend to look fuller in pics than in person. However, this is not really an issue. Simply because this comes down to a health issue. If a tree looks a bit full in pics, but in person it looks sparce. You are obviously not going to strip down more foliage and risk the health of the tree to take a good pic.

The camera can be used in an evaluating capacity. It will show you things you may not have noticed. It can be a useful tool not only in bonsai, but all art.

Rob

Thank You Rob. I believe that was precisely what I was trying to say, I am glad that someone agrees with me. You have noticed the same thing I have. The camera does not lie, if the tree looks crapy guess what ----the tree looks crapy for a reason and its is not the camera.

 

[october]

These two pic are from different points of view. The second shot has a lower camera angle which makes the tree appear to be elevated.

Anthony's quote.
"With trees designed as closer viewers, say close enough to see leaves, pads are not used."


Hi ABC. I probably should have stated that the pics I posted were in regards to Anthony's quote above about trees with leaves not having pads, not perpespective.

Rob

 

[october]

Thank You Rob. I believe that was precisely what I was trying to say, I am glad that someone agrees with me. You have noticed the same thing I have. The camera does not lie, if the tree looks crapy guess what ----the tree looks crapy for a reason and its is not the camera.

Yes, I had a tree that looked nice in person. However, I hardly ever showed a picture of it because it looked like a mess. So after complete overhaul including a different planting angle, rewired, branch and foliage removal. I finally had a good pic. Sometimes however, foliage might be a different story. Sometimes it looks fuller in pics, this we have to assess carefully.

Rob

 

[Neli]

Try this. First I am assuming you have a digital camera that is capable of somethings more than point and shoot. If you have a dark group of bushes or trees you can use as a background wait till night fall. Set your tree on a table with the afore mentioned background at least ten feet away and put a low voltage light on the tree. Take your camera and focus it on the tree with the flash setting or automatic and shoot. The camera will see the tree because of the light and the automatic settings will give you a surprisingly good picture.

The following photos were photographed using this method.

View attachment 45374 View attachment 45375 View attachment 45376 View attachment 45377 View attachment 45378

My camera has some kind of red light when it is dark that illuminates the object at night, but I am very much camera handicapped...I know how to press one button only.Do You zoom in when taking a picture from that far?
I am going to try it for sure.Thanks.

The rule is that the surface of the pot is the representation of the earth and the horizon, it is from this point of view you should do your styling. Ideally sighting across the top of the pot the front edge should be declined enough that you can see the far edge of the pot peeking over the top. This is the ideal display angle and the ideal design angle (logically).

Should the eyes be level with the center of the tree?

 

[Vance Wood]

My camera has some kind of red light when it is dark that illuminates the object at night, but I am very much camera handicapped...I know how to press one button only.Do You zoom in when taking a picture from that far?

You should fill the finder with tree. Sometimes you get a better picture if you use the zoom feature but make sure the tree fills the view finder as much as possible. Press the one button and make sure the flash feature is activated. The red light is a feature that the automatic focus uses to find the subject you plan to shoot. Another point; make sure your image is horizontal. You don't want your pictures to be looking like they are going to slide off the side of the table. This is a common problem so pay attention to it. It is discouraging to spend a bunch of time shooting pictures that look they were taken from the deck of a boat bobbing at sea. Unless you have the soft ware to straighten out these photos you will have to live with the results in one form or another.



Should the eyes be level with the center of the tree?

Yes; sort of-----

Just as if you were sitting or standing with the soil surface level of the tree and pot as described above. The eyes and or camera should be level with this horizon.

 

[Neli]

I have taken too many tilted pictures already so i have figured that one but have software too. I am good with computers and more than one needs software. Cameras...another issue.
I have some kind of polarizing lenses too for my koi.
I normally try to adjust the intensity of the flash if I want to shoot from near by and the camera is automatically activated in low light.
Thanks. Good advise.

 

[Vance Wood]

I have taken too many tilted pictures already so i have figured that one but have software too. I am good with computers and more than one needs software. Cameras...another issue.
I have some kind of polarizing lenses too for my koi.
I normally try to adjust the intensity of the flash if I want to shoot from near by and the camera is automatically activated in low light.
Thanks. Good advise.

Use the polarizing filters as well, they improve the color.

 

[Neli]

Thanks I shall try it. Never used it yet.

 

[Poink88]

Old Chinese tale.
A handsome man is shipwrecked on an island only inhabited by ugly people. He is treated as the ugliest man on the island. One day he smears his face with coal dust and is accepted as suddenly having become very handsome.

** when the majority, accept a convention, truth grows wings and flies away.***

I like it...thanks!

 

[nathanbs]

I like it...thanks!

Welcome back Dario

 

[Anthony]

Something for you guys to think about.

In Fine Art, you have Realism, Idealism, and Mannerism.

Within those 3 ism's there are subdivions, such as innovation, maintainance, and the hangers on.

Anyhow, if you are producing typical shapes, then you are somewhere in Mannerism and Realism.
What Vance is lamenting, is the apparent disappearance of Idealism.

In order for Idealism to occur, innovation will take place with the actual study of trees. Old Age, Middle and Youth, are all important.
This will most likely involve the use of drawings or something along those line.

Idealism, is what the Chinese and Japanese refined their best trees into, the so called styles.
BUT that was for them.The styles will change from place to place, continent to continent.
Some changes will be subtle, some dramatic.

Change of this order requires, much more study, than a hobby allows, and that is the problem.
Bonsai are the playthings of the very wealthy, and today, those who retire with a goodly pension.
Change costs.
Good Day
Anthony

*By the way shouting Artists and Art, will not make those who matter, take you seriously, it has to be earned, very few leave the garden craft stage.

No Dave, I am not defining A again,just repeating what has been said to me many times by Art Critiques who actually write.

 

[Vance Wood]

Something for you guys to think about.

In Fine Art, you have Realism, Idealism, and Mannerism.

Within those 3 ism's there are subdivions, such as innovation, maintainance, and the hangers on.

Anyhow, if you are producing typical shapes, then you are somewhere in Mannerism and Realism.
What Vance is lamenting, is the apparent disappearance of Idealism.

In order for Idealism to occur, innovation will take place with the actual study of trees. Old Age, Middle and Youth, are all important.
This will most likely involve the use of drawings or something along those line.

Idealism, is what the Chinese and Japanese refined their best trees into, the so called styles.
BUT that was for them.The styles will change from place to place, continent to continent.
Some changes will be subtle, some dramatic.

Change of this order requires, much more study, than a hobby allows, and that is the problem.
Bonsai are the playthings of the very wealthy, and today, those who retire with a goodly pension.
Change costs.
Good Day
Anthony

*By the way shouting Artists and Art, will not make those who matter, take you seriously, it has to be earned, very few leave the garden craft stage.

No Dave, I am not defining A again,just repeating what has been said to me many times by Art Critiques who actually write.

Speak for your self Tony, I am neither rich or with a goodly pension as you put it. I have been doing bonsai since I was very young. I have never had any excess of money, my parents were not rich, and I was never given anything significant other than the interest of a couple of people. According to you I should not be doing bonsai?

So---who are those who matter?

 

[ABCarve]

So---who are those who matter?

I think he speaks of "the gatekeeper"

 

[Anthony]

Vance,

not emotions, please, philosophy. If you have grown with your hobby and are happy, and you don't fit any kind of expectation [ mold ], more power to you.

Remember, after you master the Horticulture and the Design, it becomes the exploration of Philosophy.
More power to you!
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,

not emotions, please, philosophy. If you have grown with your hobby and are happy, and you don't fit any kind of expectation [ mold ], more power to you.

Remember, after you master the Horticulture and the Design, it becomes the exploration of Philosophy.
More power to you!
Good Day
Anthony

Thank You but that was a dodge. I asked who are those who matter?

 

[Anthony]

Sorrry Vance,

that was not a dodge, I was more focused on your emotional response. Apologies.

In Fine Art, the Gatekeeper is the Art Critique.For good or for bad, you have to get them to look at you, before you get to a museum. If they love you entry is easy, if they hate you entry is easy. If they ignore you, well..............

So far, all I see and read is folk shouting --- Look at us!!!!!

Acknowledge my effort, my life had worth, I was not born to die.
And so on.

All this pad talk is Philosophy.

In the time of Leonardo - painting was a craft - Poetry and other practices were Art forms. After much work Leonardo and others got painting to the Level of Fine Art.
What do you think you guys are doing?

So Vancenado where are you going?
Good Day
Anthony